Stories That Move

Sterling Hawkins | Hunting Discomfort

• DreamOn Studios • Season 1 • Episode 11

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What happens when you step out of your comfort zone and into the unknown? Sterling Hawkins, a pioneering entrepreneur and thought leader, joins us to explore how embracing discomfort leads to incredible personal and professional growth. From the collapse of a multi-billion dollar startup to investing in over 100 companies, Sterling's journey is a testament to resilience and the transformative power of pushing one's limits. He's taken on thrilling challenges like skydiving, swimming with sharks, and the daunting task of 'Everesting' by climbing Mount Tremblant. Sterling reveals how these experiences have shaped his philosophy of "Hunting Discomfort" and his path to remarkable achievements.

Sterling's story is both inspiring and humbling as he shares his intense experience of virtual Everesting during COVID, which tested his mental and physical limits on an extraordinary 256-mile ride. This journey into darkness and solitude uncovers the profound lessons discomfort can teach us about personal growth and fulfillment. We delve into the distinction between discomfort and danger, highlighting how confronting these challenges can lead to a greater sense of freedom and integration into our communities. Sterling's background, from his early days in a family grocery store to founding a retail software company, underscores the pivotal role discomfort has played in his success.

We also touch upon overcoming limiting beliefs and the importance of seeking out uncomfortable experiences to expand our potential. Sterling shares compelling stories of individuals who have transformed their lives by embracing discomfort, demonstrating that this approach is a catalyst for becoming better, faster, and smarter. Whether it's overcoming fears of failure or redefining success, Sterling's insights provide valuable lessons for anyone eager to push their boundaries and realize their potential. Tune in for a conversation that promises to leave you inspired to take on your own challenges with a new perspective.

Sterling Hawkins
Website: https://www.sterlinghawkins.com
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/sterlinghawkins/
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/sterling_hawkins/
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCx-Swqd9Jdfjq89I4_RJvyw

Purchase "Hunting Discomfort" by Sterling Hawkins
https://www.sterlinghawkins.com/merch

Speaker 1:

And I started to realize that discomfort is not the enemy. Discomfort is actually our access to growth inside of our lives and inside our relationships, inside business, inside of everything. It's actually a biohack to being better, faster and smarter.

Speaker 2:

Welcome back to Stories that Move everyone. I'm Matt Duhl joining you from Dream On Studios.

Speaker 3:

And I'm Mason Geiger. Today, we are excited to introduce you to a true trailblazer in the realms of entrepreneurship and organizational culture, Sterling Hawkins.

Speaker 2:

Sterling is not just an author and speaker, but a dynamic leader whose life story is a testament to the power of resilience and trust. After facing the collapse of a multi-billion dollar startup, he didn't just recover. He soared, launching and investing in over 100 companies.

Speaker 3:

Yeah. His insights have propelled C-level executives and global teams to achieve remarkable success. Sterling's philosophy Trust, deeply set monumental goals and bravely step outside your comfort zone.

Speaker 2:

From skydiving to swimming with sharks, sterling lives his life, embodying the no matter what ethos, constantly pushing the limits. Today, he's here to share how we can all tap into our potential, no matter the obstacles.

Speaker 3:

And hey, for our local listeners in Northern Indiana, we've got some exciting news. Sterling is coming to Warsaw as the headlining keynote at Warsaw's Growth Summit on November 7th.

Speaker 2:

Enjoy this warm-up to what promises to be an incredible day of growth and leadership development. Then make sure to head over to warsaugrowthsummitcom to grab your ticket to an event you do not want to miss.

Speaker 3:

But for today let's dive in and welcome Sterling Hawkins to Stories that Move.

Speaker 2:

Welcome back to Stories that Move brought to you by Dream. On Studios, I'm your host, matt Duhl, with me as always. Co-host, good friend, business partner, mason Geiger. Mason, how are you doing today?

Speaker 3:

So good and so excited for today's conversation.

Speaker 2:

We are very, very excited to talk to Sterling Hawkins today. Sterling is an author, investor, entrepreneur and keynote speaker who founded the no Matter what movement. So, Sterling, thank you so much for being here with us today.

Speaker 1:

Thanks for having me on. I'm excited to dive into everything. It's great to be with you both.

Speaker 3:

Yeah. So, sterling, I want to jump in. So I've been following you on social for the past couple months and saw you just completed an Everest thing, so can you explain what all that entailed?

Speaker 1:

Yeah. So it's kind of this crazy thing where Everesting is climbing a local mountain as many times as necessary to reach the total elevation of Everest, which is 29,029 feet almost 30,000 feet and so I did it as part of a formal group up in Mount Tremblant outside of Montreal, canada, where a group of 300 of us climbed Mount Tremblant 15 times.

Speaker 1:

I did it within a span of 24 hours, so hiking uphill nonstop for 24 hours, other than the 10, 15 minute gondola down, and it was absolutely epic, really, really cool experience that's great, so you're.

Speaker 3:

So you climb at 15 taking gondola down, so you don't even get the like, uh, the satisfaction of getting to come back down the hill. You get to ride a gondola, then go straight back up that's right.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, and you know a couple times. No, it was difficult, but the mental game, especially once you get into 9, 10, 11, 12 laps on this thing, was excruciating. Getting off that gondola and turning right to go up the mountain again, it was soul-crushing yeah.

Speaker 3:

What was the? I'm always curious. I've done so. I did a virtual Everesting during COVID on my bike, um, so I cycle a lot and so I did. I mean, he's 256 miles on Zwift, um, doing the Everest challenge and I know there's some dark, dark moments. Um, what was that like for you? Or like, where where were some of those key moments? You remember looking back on me and like man, that was, uh, yeah, not not sure I want to do that again, but also I'm really glad that I did. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1:

Well, when I finished, the first thing they asked me was like oh, will you do this again? I was like now is not the time to ask me that, absolutely not. But here I am, I don't know 10 days or so out, and i'm'm thinking that was really cool, maybe I would. But the hardest part of it for me was actually I think it was my 13th lap and technically, as part of this challenge, you're allowed 36 hours, for whatever reason. I told myself nope, I was going to do it straight. I was going to do it in 24 hours nonstop. I was going to do it straight, I was going to do it in 24 hours nonstop.

Speaker 1:

And at 2, 3, 4 am in the morning there were maybe one or two other people on the entirety of the mountain. It was deserted out there and it was a little bit cool. Fog had rolled in, it was raining a little bit, it was absolutely pitch black. They had lighting on the trail, but it wasn't all that great. So you know kind of stumbling through in different places, and I don't think I've ever been that lonely before. It just felt like there was nothing and nobody around and in that that emptiness, to be able to take that next step was really hard. I was all in my head about it. I'm like why are you doing this? This is stupid. If you stop right now, nobody will care. Like you're putting this on yourself, sterling. In fact, you paid for this experience. You can just stop. And it really took something to let go of those thoughts and take that next step.

Speaker 2:

Wow, wow. We've got your book that you authored sitting here on the coffee table Hunting Discomfort and we're going to get into that. But right off the jump we're finding that you are true to your work, because it sounds like you hunted some discomfort in the midst of that journey there.

Speaker 1:

No doubt. Well, I think it's not something that I just share. I'm not just a writer and keynote speaker about this idea of discomfort. Important to me is that I'm living true to those things that I believe. I'm not just espousing values, but I'm doing the best I can to move from that place, and I've found you know through the Everesting experience and many other moments of discomfort that it's in the moments of the uncomfortable and the uncertain that we can extract this greater potential from ourselves that makes a difference, not just in that moment, but has this ripple effect throughout our lives and throughout the communities that we're moving in. It's really kind of beautiful, although difficult, as you might imagine.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Well, go ahead and take a few moments for our listeners to, yeah, just introduce yourself. Tell us a little bit more about you, where you're coming from, the no Matter what movement, what is that and what are you doing in the world with that?

Speaker 1:

Well, I think it's important to say, especially given the book title of Hunting Discomfort. A lot of people will come to me and say, sterling, you got to look at my relationships, my family, my bank account, my business. I don't need to hunt discomfort. I'm surrounded by it and I get that. I understand we live in a day and a time where discomfort seems to be around every single next turn that we take. But the point of hunting discomfort, the point of what I'm sharing, is not to live an uncomfortable life.

Speaker 1:

Oftentimes, when people are stuck with discomfort, it's a function of them rationalizing why they have that discomfort, placating themselves living with it versus doing something about it. So there's this ironic nature of hunting discomfort which is the more discomfort you hunt, the more you're actually free of it, which is my point right. The more free, the more expressed, the more connected, the more integrated into our communities that we can be, the more that not only do we get the results we want in life, but we get that internal fulfillment as well. Does that make sense? First, before I go into a little bit of background, yeah, absolutely.

Speaker 1:

Now I say this as somebody that did not come out of the womb wanting to hunt discomfort.

Speaker 1:

I think, anything, but I had a great life growing up. I grew up in upstate New York, fifth generation of my family to work in my family's grocery store in the Syracuse area. If you or any of the listeners are familiar with that area area, if you or any of the listeners are familiar with that area, that area has the prized distinction of being one of the cloudiest parts of the United States, which I didn't really realize until I moved away and realized how beautiful some other parts of the country can be every time of the year.

Speaker 1:

But in any case, I worked in the store growing up and I thought right out of college, you know what? It's time to spread my wings a little bit Like. I know this store, I know our community, I know our operations, I know our people. I know it all like the back of my hand. I'd been in it for, you know, 15, 18, 20 years in one way or another, and so I started this retail software company with my dad. And look, you can probably guess who my first customer was. Right, yeah, right, my family store of course.

Speaker 1:

And we grew pretty quickly. In fact, we got to a point within our first year where we were acquired and joined this massive conglomerate in the Bay Area. That was kind of like the Apple Pay before Apple Pay Okay, little fingerprint sensor sat next to the credit card terminal. After you registered, all you had to do was put your finger down. There was no phone, but other than that, it was basically an early version of Apple Pay, before Apple Pay had come out. And still, no discomfort. We raised hundreds of millions of dollars, multibillion dollar valuation, 700 employees, offices all over the world. It was an incredible experience, especially being in the middle of this.

Speaker 1:

Right out of college, I didn't know anything else. I thought, like, business is easy, I've got life figured out, it's only a matter of time until we go public, I'll cash in and I humbly crown myself the next steve jobs, right, wow, yeah. But my first really big moment of discomfort came when the housing market collapsed. So this is 2009, 2010. We didn't have enough organic growth to sustain the size, the infrastructure we had built, and the entire thing comes crashing down. So half a billion dollars of cash is just gone. And it wasn't just that I no longer had a job, but, like many of us, when we don't have a job, I eventually run out of cash.

Speaker 1:

I go from this big, beautiful penthouse in downtown San Francisco, where I thought I had it made, to my parents' house and this is my early thirties now, so one of the most humbling experiences of my life and it got so bad Even my girlfriend broke up with me. It's like a depressing country song guys. I hit every single beat of this thing. It was brutal, and it was in that dark moment, though, that I had this change of perspective, this change of thought. I thought you know what? How I've been doing this, how I've been operating, isn't working for me. I must need to update my view of the world, and I started with this thing of well, maybe it's discomfort, maybe my avoidance, denial and just like outright of survival, of getting through hard things wasn't the right way to do it, and so that really started my journey of starting to go after anything that was uncomfortable, to see what I could learn about myself and the world in the process. A little bit crazy, maybe, but it's working out for me now.

Speaker 3:

Yeah. So what? What were some of those first moments of you seeking discomfort that you started to like hey, I want to dig into this more. What were some of those first steps for you?

Speaker 1:

They were really simple things in the beginning, and what I would do is I would tell myself things like well, I'm going to get out of bed tomorrow, no matter what simple, it was uncomfortable for me to get out of bed. And then it was things like well, I'm going to call my creditors, no matter what. I didn't have any money to pay him back, but I was at least going to have the integrity of having the necessary conversations to say you know, I can't pay you back now, but let me just address this and let's figure this out and put some some guide rails in place. So I went after that discomfort and then things started to get a little bit bigger. I was I think I've always been shy, are you? You just naturally good in front of the camera? No, Both of you.

Speaker 2:

No. No, I was not, it at all yeah.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, yeah, I think it's. It's like the biggest fear, even bigger than dying, if I'm not mistaken, right.

Speaker 1:

Like it's it's terrifying for people, and I'm somebody that was um, I think I was always shy, but after this failure I was so ashamed of what I had been through I couldn't show my face in public, so I said I'm going to start talking to people. I'm going to start speaking no matter what. And so there were just these little steps that for many of us are really simple, but for me, in that rock bottom moment, were incredibly hard. And since it's grown to doing things like Everesting, working with people, launch companies with inside of new categories. I just climbed Mount Kilimanjaro, maybe six or seven weeks ago, something like that Cycle across the Rockies, skydiving, shark diving and, as you probably guessed from this conversation, a little more speaking in public. And I started to realize that discomfort is not the enemy. Discomfort is actually our access to growth inside of our lives and inside our relationships, inside business, inside of everything. It's actually a biohack to being better, faster and smarter.

Speaker 2:

Wow, wow to being better, faster and smarter. Wow, wow. Do you recall? I mean in some of those early moments where you started to see the other side of that, where you started to see some of that philosophy play out and prove itself.

Speaker 1:

Yeah. So the one that's just like ingrained in my memory is when I got it started speaking yeah, I'm living at my parents house, my girlfriend broke up with me, I'm in six figures of personal debt and you know not to get too heavy on you, but I didn't know if I could or even if I wanted to go on. It was just like this I, I don't know if I can do this anymore. I felt like I had my shot and I blew it. But as I'm thinking about this idea of discomfort and maybe going after it, I get this junk mail from a conference in Singapore, and it's junk mail like we all get thousands of every single day. It invited me to be an attendee at their conference. You know, pay $100, join all these leaders from all over the place. And I thought, ok, I'm going to put this thing to the test. So I hit reply and I put why don't you have me speak? Best, sterling. And I don't know if it was one of these situations where I just got lucky or, you know, maybe something greater smiled upon me.

Speaker 1:

But I end up getting on the phone with this conference director and talking him into being not like a breakout speaker, but the main speaker at his events. It's insanity Like this. This poor guy. I talked him into it and I didn't think much of it. It was a little bit of a game, you know. It didn't mean anything to me until he sent me the legal agreement and then I was right back in my head Like I don't know what I'm going to say.

Speaker 1:

I feel like a huge failure and I'm terrified, like beyond terrified, to do this. But I did what I think is important for all of us to do in the face of discomfort, which is I committed, specifically committed, in a way where there was no going back. I signed that legal agreement and sent it back to him before all that self-doubt could have stopped me, and I practiced non-stop for like this five or six months before that event, and I'm not kidding. Every day I would get up, I would practice, I would write, I would work on the presentation. Everything in me was hoping that, oh, they were going to call me and cancel, but I ended up giving that presentation in Singapore. It's a good thing I practiced, because I think I blacked out. I don't remember giving it and I was sure, I totally bombed.

Speaker 1:

So I get off the stage and the conference director is catching up with me and he looks me in the eyes and goes Sterling, that's the best talk I've seen in my 17 years of doing this, talk that I gave. There's no way, you know, like I'm sure he just wanted to say something nice to me. This poor kid flowed halfway around the world to bomb on his stage. But he did go on to put me in touch with all of his conference director friends and it wasn't until that moment that I started to realize, hey, there's something to this, and what works for me of going after the uncomfortable and the unknown works for all of us. We just need a really good system to be able to operationalize it.

Speaker 3:

Wow, whenever you sent that initial email, did you have any idea what your talk was going to be on? Or was it just like, hey, I'm just going to throw this out there and then figure it out?

Speaker 1:

Yeah, it was exactly that. It was I'm I'm going to take a stab at it. I really like I literally have nothing to lose, like I can't get lower than this rock bottom, at least in my own experience. And once I had secured it, though, I did some real soul searching. I started to journal and think about well, what do I have to share? And I was most scared of people learning about this failure that I was a part of. That was the biggest fear. Beyond being seen. That was my biggest worry. I didn't want to be on the stage and have somebody raise their hand and be like hey, how about that half a billion dollars you were involved with losing? So I decided that I would meet this thing head on and hunt discomfort in a little different way, and I would share pieces of that story before anybody could find out. I would use the uncomfortable thing a little bit to my advantage.

Speaker 2:

Wow, wow, and so I'm guessing in in that moment some of what the attendees experience and that conference director experience was your authenticity, right, and it was the willingness for you to get up and be vulnerable on stage to to share your story. I mean you feel like that was, at the end of the day, kind of the secret sauce to share your story. I mean you feel like that was, at the end of the day, kind of the secret sauce to the whole thing.

Speaker 1:

Unintentionally. So, yeah, what I've started to realize maybe not from that first one, but in doing hundreds of events since is that we all fail in big ways and small ways. We all have things that maybe we wished went differently, or things that we're a little bit embarrassed of or a lot embarrassed of, and what I discovered is that me sharing something that was such a big mistake in my life almost allows everybody in the audience to be a little more okay with what they've been through. It almost validates their own experience and, by willing to be seen myself, it lets them be seen a little bit more as well. And it's hugely freeing for people when they feel that of everything they've been through, of all the problems, the challenges and the circumstances, that that it's okay. We all make mistakes, we'll all continue to make mistakes, but we can stand up in the face of them. I think that's been a lot of the power of what I have to share. So I'm agreeing with you. Yeah, that's beautiful.

Speaker 1:

So coming off that stage getting connected and you start speaking more. What were kind of some of those next steps in your journey? Well, the first was coming to terms with I was going to do it again. You know, I wasn't kidding. I thought I totally bombed that thing on the stage and even though he said some nice things to me afterwards, I didn't see, I thought I totally bombed that thing on the stage and even though he said some nice things to me afterwards, I didn't see myself as a success. I still saw that speech as a complete failure, just as an extension of everything else that I had been a part of, and so I really had to sit down and kind of get comfortable with the fact that I was going to put myself out there again.

Speaker 1:

And I found this cool research around this time came out of the university of michigan and they were studying discomfort. They were looking at physical discomfort like you know, you stubbed your toe or emotional discomfort maybe you have a business deal, go south and you break up with a loved one or whatever it might be and they found that physically, mentally and emotionally, the brain and body process discomfort almost identically. So much so you can take acetaminophen like Tylenol, and it will help you with emotional pain. Now full disclosures for everybody listening. I'm not a doctor. That's not a biohack. Do not put a bowl of Tylenol on your desk for all of your team members to take part of when you're going through challenging things.

Speaker 1:

That's not what I'm recommending here. The takeaway is that if where you meet, discomfort is the same anywhere, we can grow our capacity to deal with it everywhere. It's a muscle you can build. If you want to build your biceps, you go to the gym. You want to grow your resiliency, you want to grow your results, you want to grow through your capacity for breakthroughs. You hunt discomfort, no matter what form it's in.

Speaker 1:

So that second time of getting up on stage after this big failure was a little bit easier. And then I realized, oh well, if it's the same anywhere, I can push myself to run an ultramarathon and that will translate into being OK with getting up on stages and having some of those continued difficult conversations I had. And then, admittedly, I probably went off the deep end a little bit. I started hunting discomfort anywhere and everywhere that I had. And then, admittedly, I probably went off the deep end a little bit. I started hunting discomfort anywhere and everywhere that I could.

Speaker 1:

But the really cool part about it and this gets back to what you're asking about with the no matter what movement is that people started to watch me. They saw me literally being transformed by discomfort. It wasn't like I had a new idea. It was like I was showing up in a new way, who I was, started to evolve and I said, well, what are you doing? What did you do? And I said, well, I found something that was uncomfortable for me and I committed to doing it no matter what. And they said, oh well, I'm going to try that. And it was first my sister who, like too many young people, especially young women, she had this eating disorder, body dysmorphia, and she said, sterling, I will be healthy no matter what. Well, today she's a championship bodybuilder. Wow.

Speaker 1:

And one of the healthiest people that I know.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, that's amazing.

Speaker 1:

And then there was Sofen, who came to the US as a Cambodian refugee. He didn't speak, the language was flat broke, and he said I will be a successful entrepreneur. Well, as a founder of a Cambodian beef jerky company, which I didn't even know was a thing, he's selling more than he can keep up with. And you know, it was first them and then few people, then hundreds of people and thousands of people from all around the world, all committing to big, uncomfortable things and moving through the discomfort necessary to achieve them. And I realized that you know, this idea, this thing that I started to develop to dig myself out of that really deep dark hole, actually is not about me, it's about supporting others, and that really was the birth of the no matter what movement years ago now.

Speaker 2:

So talk to us about what that did for you emotionally, Like you said. I mean, you were. You were in this dark hole, and now you're seeing your story being used to help transform the lives of other people. What did that mean to you?

Speaker 1:

Yeah, well, in the last couple of years, especially from being bottomed out at my parents' house, I did some reflection on, well, what do I want my life to be about?

Speaker 1:

Reflection on what do I want my life to be about? You know, if I get to the end of my life and I'm laying on that proverbial deathbed, what do I want to say to somebody that I stood for and I don't think I had a good answer for that a decade ago. I think most what I was concerned with was making money and having material success and looking great on Instagram and all those things and what it did going through this process myself and, more so, supporting others in their journey is that I now know what I want my life to be about. Or maybe better said, I know what my life is about and it's supporting others to live a courageous life, to go into the uncomfortable and the uncertain, to realize their own potential in big ways and small ways. And so you know, it's fundamentally become part of the framework of why I'm still here. Not to get too philosophical on you again but yeah, you asked, yeah, I sure did.

Speaker 2:

I love it I love it how?

Speaker 3:

uh, you talked a little bit about going maybe off the deep end a little bit with the like hunting, discomfort, um, what do you say to someone like, or okay the phrase, get comfortable, being uncomfortable, like what is that? How does that? Hit you, you know, is there a point of like you're pursuing discomfort so much that it's almost a comfort to seek discomfort yeah.

Speaker 1:

I think it's something that you got to look at the place that you're moving from. Like what is moving you? Is it fear, you know, fear of maybe being left behind or not hunting enough discomfort, or is it really something greater that's inspiring to move you ahead? Or maybe, better said, calling you to move ahead? And when you can distinguish why you're doing something to begin with, is it an act of avoidance or denial, or is it an act of potential or love or joy or commitment to something greater, then you can kind of decipher what that line is for you. What I found is that I enjoy a lot of these uncomfortable things, maybe not in the moment, like I was saying after that Everesting thing, I was like never again am I doing this.

Speaker 1:

That was a nightmare. But looking back at it, of my own experience and you know talking with some of the people on the way and chatting with people at the end of their journey that that's some of the most meaningful conversations that I have. When people are going through the unknown and the uncomfortable, to be in that space with them, either going through it with them in a physical sense or supporting them for more of an emotional, intellectual, even spiritual sense, that that's really where the most humanness comes through, and so that's what pulls me forward. Does that make sense.

Speaker 3:

Oh yeah, I think so many of the ultra running books and forums. I feel like the phrase that comes up is you're either running towards something or you're running away from something. So, it's like you've got to identify which one are you doing, and so it's very easy to get sucked into that and you're actually, you're seeking discomfort as a way to not deal with the things that you actually need to deal with, and really that's the uncomfortable thing that you need to go back and take care of Um exactly. It's so good, exactly yeah.

Speaker 1:

Well, you know discomfort. I think just to add on that, if you don't mind, it's something that evolutionarily is built into us for survival. You know, if we look back at our really early ancestors, the discomfort of being cold meant that they had to find a warm cave or something to survive. The discomfort of being hungry meant, well, I've got to go hunt or forage or somehow I need some energy in my body. The discomfort of fear meant, well, I need a place that feels safe at night. It was driving our behavior for our survival.

Speaker 1:

Now, in modernity, it doesn't really work that way because we can avoid discomfort all day long and I'm still fine. You know, I can avoid the hard conversation. I don't have to go to work because I can work on Zoom. I don't have to go out to a restaurant. I can order pizza on Uber Eats and watch Netflix all evening. That discomfort I can avoid. But really, that discomfort is still teaching you something. You know it's probably not for many of us lucky enough to have a roof over our head. It's not like you need some place to live or you need to eat, but it's telling us something that we need to solve. That discomfort, to ask it what are you here to teach me, versus trying to get away from it or medicating it or doing other things to distract ourselves from it. That's where real growth starts to emerge.

Speaker 2:

So if you were, you know, sitting with someone and you know, kind of coaching them through a season of life and they're presenting to you the obstacles, the reasons, the excuses, whatever the case may be of like this is why I can't get from here to here, from A to B, what would your advice be to them in that moment?

Speaker 1:

Yeah Well, I think we live in a world that's oftentimes defined by circumstances. You know, there's never enough money and there's never enough time. I, to date, have never met anybody that's like ah, plenty of time, plenty of money, no problem. Even I've got friends that have, you know, eight, nine figures in the bank account and they still don't have enough money and enough time. Right, like it's just a function of how human beings operate that often we look at things from this place of lack and why we can't achieve something.

Speaker 1:

And I think what's interesting is there are certainly some hard limits in place. Sometimes you do need more money, sometimes you do need more time, but I think looking at the limiting beliefs that cause us to have that viewpoint to begin with is the interesting thing To start to look at. Well, why is this my only path forward? And start to trace some of that discomfort back to where it originated. I learned this cool fact not too long ago that human beings are only born with two discomforts. You know what they are? No, only two things are biologically built into us at least the research says Okay. One is the fear of loud noises and the other is the fear of falling. Hmm.

Speaker 1:

Nowhere in there did we come out of the womb with the fear of failure, the fear of looking bad, the fear of not having enough money, the fear of not having enough time. That all started somewhere. At some point in our lives, probably in childhood, we started to make decisions about what we had and what we didn't have. We made decisions about who we were and who we weren't, and as we can trace some of those limiting beliefs back to where they originally started, we can actually uproot them from the source, freeing ourselves from them forever and permanently. So the situations that formerly looked like a roadblock all of a sudden are a small piece of a much bigger picture. Once you can tap into that greater potential, wow.

Speaker 3:

Wow, that is so interesting actually when you think about it, yeah no kidding Wow.

Speaker 1:

Yes, it's all built into us somewhere. Somewhere we've learned all these things. For many of us it's in a blind spot, right? It happened when you were three years old, or five years old, or eight years old. Or a teacher told you that you weren't smart, or you weren't a good writer, or maybe your parents taught you that there was never enough money. My parents always said money doesn't grow on trees. You know that one.

Speaker 1:

Oh yeah Right. So all of a sudden I've got wired into my brain and nervous system that there's never enough money. Well, that's not a biological fear, that's not something we're born with, and starting to trace it back to some of those limiting beliefs is incredibly freeing. It's kind of a fun ride, a little bit uncomfortable, as you might imagine, but that's the work that I love to get into, um, you know, especially one-on-one or in smaller groups, to have some of those deeper conversations, because they they make a transformative difference yeah, that's so good.

Speaker 2:

So for you, um, you know, you, you kind of jump off the deep end and just say, all right, I I've had this terrible experience I'm gonna go right to public speaking, which you know, like you said, of jump off the deep end and just say, all right, I've had this terrible experience, I'm going to go right to public speaking, which you know, like you said, on the top of people's list of things, like don't want to do that. What was it like for you to turn the corner in just some of the entrepreneurial things, to return back to some of the failure of seeing a business tank and saying I'm going to get back on the horse, I'm going to invest in some things, I'm going to get back into the entrepreneurial side of my life.

Speaker 1:

So it was difficult because there was a lot of fear fear of losing that big again, right, like I had taken this thing that happened in the past and my own brain, my own self I projected this as something that could potentially happen in the future. And so back to what we're saying earlier, I was moving from this place of fear of that's never going to happen to me again and I'm going to protect myself from it and do anything and everything I can to avoid those kinds of scenarios. And I hear that oftentimes with a lot of people. You know I lost this job or this relationship, I got hurt in or I said this thing and I'm never, ever going to do that again, and it's just inherently limiting.

Speaker 1:

And so once I started to see that on myself, I started to do some of the real work, the hard work of digging into letting go of that failure from the past, processing some of that grief of loss, of being part of this massive company, thinking that I've got my whole life figured out and then I don't.

Speaker 1:

It's almost like I went through the stages of grief to process some of that. And intellectually, there's this line between things that I think I can do and things that I can actually do. Intellectually it's an easy jump like, oh, I just get back into the entrepreneurial world, I'll do it again, it's no problem, I'll let go of failure. But in practice, to write that first check, to send that letter to the government asking to start a company, that was really uncomfortable and all of a sudden I started to find myself delaying, right where I'm like I'll do it tomorrow, tomorrow, tomorrow, all of a sudden I'm writing a page on shakespeare and I didn't even know it. But really like that, that's one of the signs you're avoiding discomfort when you're delaying. And I write about this stuff and I still caught myself doing it you know, and so it was difficult to catch myself, hold myself accountable.

Speaker 1:

I actually did. What I recommend we all do when we're delaying things or when we're really committed to something is. I found some people to hold me accountable and support me and sit down on a regular basis, and it wasn't this like loose level of accountability of, oh, you didn't do it again, sterling, do it next time. It was the. What do you mean? You didn't do it yet? Why didn't you do it yet? What happened? Right and like I'm pouring out all the reasons and excuses and all the circumstances and it's just like those are not actually reasons. There's no reason that you can't do this right now. And so that really helped kind of break that deadlock. I was in to get back in the game and it started slowly, but slowly I was able to kind of accelerate that pace and now you know I probably worked with, invested in or helped found I don't know, 50, 60, 80 companies, something like that, quite a few of them, and it's become fun again. I'm no longer just terrified of a potential failure to come in.

Speaker 3:

Wow. So really they said, thinking back to your book, so you've got your framework kind of for hunting discomfort and so they kind of served as your street gang as you refer to in the book. Can you kind of walk? Our listeners through what are kind of those five stages of hunting discomfort?

Speaker 1:

The more research I did around discomfort, I think not just the research, but like reflecting on my own experience, because sometimes the academic stuff can be a little too heady for me. I'm like, well, how does that connect to me? Like, what is my experience in this? And I found that there are five major discomforts that stop all of us. We all deal with all of them, but there's one that tends to be the biggest roadblock for us at any given point, and those fives are the fear of expanding our beliefs, so letting go of how we've defined ourselves, each other in the world, to see this bigger picture of potential. The fear of self-doubt, the fear of exposure, people seeing you for who you really are, like all the successes, obviously, but especially all the failures, the things that maybe you'd rather not have had happen. The fear of challenges, and then I think of this as like the fear that rules them all, the fear of the unknown. And so, looking at each one of those things, we started to develop almost like this anecdote or antidote, excuse me of what do we do about that? Right, Like, if those major fears are in place, how do we handle that?

Speaker 1:

And we found that, well, it's the five steps in the book of first, we need to expand our view of what's possible. We need to commit in ways where there's no going back. We need to find a street gang, as you're saying, to hold ourselves accountable. We need to find ways to turn those challenges into pathways forward and finally, we need a way to come to terms with the fact that it's all unknown ahead of us. With all the predictions around what's going on with the stock market and traffic and weather and everything else, it's easy to get lulled into this complacency of well, I know everything that's going to happen next, but fundamentally, tomorrow is not promised to any of us at any level. To terms with the profundity of that unknown, I think, is is, you know well, like I said, it's, it's the unknown that that rules them all and can create some really big um pathways forward for us. That's all five of them.

Speaker 2:

That's awesome, so I want to camp on the fifth one for a second, and you know for us as you know, business leaders and, I think, some of our audience, young entrepreneurs I think that uncertainty thing and what's ahead in the future is huge. So again, what would your? Advice be? What would your coaching be to a young leader who's just kind of in the midst of starting something or moving something forward? But that is the wall that just keeps coming.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, to me it's this function of acceptance accepting things exactly as they are and exactly as they're not. You might even say surrender, but surrender not in terms of like give up, sit on the couch, order pizza and watch Netflix Although if you like pizza as much as I do, that's time and a place for that kind of thing, right. Accepting things exactly as they are we cannot change anything until we accept them. Carl Jung said this Condemnation about our past failures, who we are, the skill sets that we have, the people that are around us, what's going on with the economy, what's happening with the election condemnation about anything does not liberate.

Speaker 1:

It makes it very hard, maybe even impossible, to do much else, and so what I would suggest to those people that are constantly bumping into the unknown and it holds them back is to look for places where you can accept, maybe a mindfulness practice, a yoga practice, a breathing practice, a journaling practice, some kind of practice that helps you accept the unknown and ultimately, our own unknown as we pass into the next stage. Whatever that looks like, whatever you believe, but coming to terms with that helps you take steps forward in the unknown, because we start to realize that it's actually everywhere and we have to do it, no matter what.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, so it's really that action oriented mindset of it's like you have to accept it and then take the steps forward.

Speaker 1:

And it doesn't mean that you're okay with things this is a big conversation I get into with a lot of executives it doesn't mean that you don't want the future to be different. You can be committed to higher levels of performance or greater sales, or deeper relationships or more locations or whatever your goals are. You can be committed to those things relationships or more locations or whatever your goals are. You can be committed to those things. But oftentimes the past of how things have already gone holds us back and until we can come to terms with that and accept it exactly the way it is and exactly the way it isn't, it's doing more harm than good. When we can I'll use this term like complete the past, be okay with everything that's happened. That frees us to make those commitments not from a place of fear and not from a place of compensation, but from a place of true potential and creation, which is always and inevitably much more effective.

Speaker 3:

So good, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1:

Any moment for you, you didn't know this was going to be such a philosophical podcast.

Speaker 2:

I love it.

Speaker 3:

I'm like I just want to sit and soak in that for a second Exactly.

Speaker 2:

Yeah. Yeah. It's our job to keep asking you questions, but we're like hold on a second.

Speaker 1:

Let's think about this.

Speaker 2:

This is good. This is good.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, questions, but we're like hold on a second, let's think about this. This is good. This is good, yeah. Well, it is a deep idea, right? Because I think the concept of getting out of your comfort zone is not a new one. Yeah, right, and it's something that I think everybody to some level already knows. I feel like half my friends are already posting it on Instagram, right Like grow your comfort zone. It's outside your comfort zone that all new things exist. Great, but the knowledge of that makes no difference, right we?

Speaker 1:

really have to sit in some of these things. We have to hit pause on our life, on our business, on our relationship, and reflect on well, where am I avoiding that discomfort? Where have I gotten so comfortable that I don't even see it anymore? And it's only in those moments of reflection and stillness that we can actually do some of this work. I think there's, if you don't mind, this idea of work. I think is an important one, because there's three aspects to it.

Speaker 1:

A lot of people, when they're challenged by something, or even when they're not, the solution to everything is well, I need to work harder. Instead of working 40 hours a week, I'm going to work 60 or 70 or 80, 90 plus, especially if you're in the entrepreneurial realm. What working harder means is you're essentially doing more of the same things. It is linearly scalable and highly limiting. So there's this next level of work, which is well, we need to work more efficiently. Level of work, which is well, we need to work more efficiently. And that means that I'm going to do 40 hours of work, but now I'm going to do it in 30 hours. Essentially, I'm going to be doing the same things, just a little more effectively, a little more efficiently.

Speaker 1:

Time and place for those things. I think they're fantastic. We have to use them in business. We have to use them in our life. There are times when we have to work harder and we have to work more effectively, we have to work smarter. But the real change comes from doing what I call the real work. And the real work is making the formerly uncomfortable comfortable. It's digging into ourselves and not just like muscling our way through uncomfortable things, but opening our minds to new perspectives, new ideas, new views of ourselves, each other in the world. That's softening our heart to some of the uncomfortable feelings that live there, that those things can forever and permanently move through you so you're ultimately free of them. Real work is where transformation takes place.

Speaker 3:

Real work is where we start to know ourselves newly, and real work is the only place where we can start to realize our full potential as you've walked alongside and, yeah, just like different people, like what has it been like to see that aha moment or that unlock, where it's just like they've had this viewpoint of, yeah, they've had this set viewpoint of how things work, and then they experience what you're talking about here and then it's just like a whole new world has opened up to them it's one of the most moving and inspiring things that I have the honor and pleasure of sometimes being a part of, because it's not an intellectual function, it's not like oh, I thought this and now I think that I think Carol Dweck's work around a growth mindset Carol Dweck's work around a growth mindset, I think, is incredibly accurate, but the language is a little bit misleading.

Speaker 1:

It's not like you can just change your mind. Anybody that's been afraid of not making enough money or been afraid of failing or been afraid to speak in public, they know, we all know you can't just change your mind about those things. It's a change of heart that actually matters. That's where a true growth mindset is. It doesn't exist up here, it exists inside of us. And to have people move out of their brain and into their heart where they can have this not just idea of greater potential but the experience of greater potential, it actually gives me goosebumps. Where they're lit up, their pupils dilate, big smiles cross their face. You know the journey to get there might be painful and it might be scary, but I think having that epiphany inside of ourselves, but I think having that epiphany inside of ourselves, not an intellectual function but an experience of something greater, is one of the most beautiful things that I think humans can go through.

Speaker 1:

And how would you say?

Speaker 4:

that you lead someone there from head to heart. You're asking the guy that wrote Hunting Discomfort.

Speaker 1:

So to go up, we've got to go down first, and it's starting to trace back some of those things that have stood in your way. You know, philosophically I believe that we all have this incredible potential in ourselves, inexhaustible potential, unlimited in nature, and it's always there. There's always this love and joy and gratitude and peace inside of us. But it gets tapped down with all these limiting beliefs and all these circumstances and all these problems and all these losses and all the real pain that human beings go through, especially when we make it into adulthood. And so what that process is is starting to unpack those things that are in the way of that potential and to go back with a major thing, like I had, or smaller things, to start to uproot some of those things from their source and get in touch with some of the pain that you've tapped down that's holding back that potential.

Speaker 1:

Now, when you can get to the source of that, not just intellectually but emotionally, as we kind of walk through a conversation, it gives us the opportunity to set that aside and start to live true to something that's much more important to us those moments of joy and inspiration and happiness that we all have. But maybe it's just me, but I feel like the older we get sometimes, the more fleeting those moments are. You know like everything becomes expected and predicted and I knew you were going to do that. I knew this was the way it was going to happen and I knew I was going to fail at that, like you know too much. And as we can let go of some of those things, we can start to align ourselves to that ultimate potential within, by getting out of the way the things that are in the way of that ultimate expression. Does that make any sense at all or do I need to explain it?

Speaker 2:

Yeah.

Speaker 1:

Okay, good, no it does it does?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, well, and I know I mean just as I'm thinking here for myself and some of the moments where I've faced what has felt like the scariest things or the hardest conversations, the things that I lost sleep for for days and I avoided for months, and then finally stepped into it. And finally stepped into it and just the instant, like relief and gratification that came from stepping into it, it was just like wait a second. This was supposed to be the hardest thing ever and it's not you know like it was.

Speaker 2:

It was, it took that step, but once, once I found myself in it, it was like I can do this, I can do this, so, um, how often do you find that to be true with people of just that, that, getting into the moment that first step is on the other side, it just starts to pick up steam.

Speaker 1:

That's always the case, right, it's the fear of what might happen, because we realize, once we step into that thing, whatever it is, that we have the capacity to deal with it and that's not an intellectual function, or maybe, better said, not purely an intellectual function. We realize, oh, I stepped into that pain, I stepped into the hard conversation, I stepped into the hardship and, by the way, I'm still here.

Speaker 3:

Yeah.

Speaker 1:

So not only have you intellectually broken a limiting belief, but you've proven it wrong by your actions. And you know, as I was saying earlier, the more we do that stuff, the better we get at it. So I look at it as like a not a one and done thing. And okay, I did the challenging things and now I'm going to build up some momentum in that aspect. Fantastic, let's do that, but let's keep doing them. Yeah, let's keep doing those hard things. Let's keep doing the uncomfortable things, let's keep having the hard conversations, let's keep putting ourselves out there, let's keep being willing to fail, and the expansive nature of that has this incredible ripple effect, you know, through ourselves, through how we see ourselves, through our community, through our ultimate fulfillment and also through our results, which looks like more money, time better spent, deeper connections. All the things we're looking for. All exists in the unknown and the uncomfortable. We just need the courage to step into it. The more often the better, in my opinion.

Speaker 3:

Yeah no, that's great. I mean, that was going to be my next kind of like line of questions. That's yeah, perfect transition here of so for someone cause it's very easy to like when you're in a dark, not as easy whenever you're in a dark spot. It's like you're forced to like all right, the only way I'm going to get out of this. I gotta lean into the discomfort. But then it's like once you get on the other side, you're like okay, cool, we're through that, I'm back to normal, I can kind of settle back in, yeah, but it's like you're saying continually to seek, and that's like I love that, like the just the visual visualization, like hunting discomfort. You continually seek that out because you know that that next moment is coming whenever you're going to be forced into an uncomfortable situation. So how do we keep practicing being uncomfortable so when that next thing happens it doesn't feel like that big of a deal.

Speaker 4:

Which, like, I got this yeah like I've been doing this for so can you talk a little bit to the?

Speaker 3:

practice and how you continue to keep that momentum going.

Speaker 1:

Well, I think one is a willingness of understanding how our own biology works and embracing it right, like knowing that my potential is on the other side of the uncomfortable and the uncertain and I need to step in there right. So there's, like this knowledge or understanding or acceptance of I need to do these over time, these things over time, to grow my capacity as a human being, to realize my calling in the world. And then to me, it's a function of your community, it's the people you're going to surround yourself with to support those goals. Most importantly, accountability. Yeah, I know we've harped on this a little bit better, but when you're personally accountable, right, that means accountable for something at a specific day, at a specific time. We're not 70, 80 or 90% more likely to do it, we're 95% more likely to do it. We're 95% more likely to do it 95% To give you some idea.

Speaker 1:

Back to that Everest conversation I signed up for that last October. It was almost a year before it happened that I had signed up for it, but I signed on the dotted line. I made that commitment. And then I had a group of people I was doing it with and I posted it on social media. So I had accountability. I couldn't just get closer to it and be like, oh, now's not a good time, which it kind of wasn't by the way Right Like, oh, it would be better if it was next week, I'm going to cancel. This week I had different plans or work changed or whatever it was. I had that level of accountability and then had to fulfill with it.

Speaker 1:

And, by the way, as you can build this into your community, that could be your family, that could be the people you live with, that could be your team, that could be your company. You're nearly four times as likely to be successful with the goals that you have, as likely to be successful with the goals that you have. So, as we can, you know, set as our goal to do some of these uncomfortable things on somewhat regular basis and find a group of people that can hold us accountable, it starts to really build that momentum and excitement and I think you'll find people will find the same thing I did. Not only does it kind of force you into doing them, which you kind of want to do anyways, but you kind of start to be excited about them at the same time, because you've grown your capacity, you've grown this belief in yourself that, no matter what happens, you'll be able to deal with it.

Speaker 2:

So good. Any moment where you found yourself like I've taken this too far, like you're, you're face to face with a grizzly bear like squaring up, like okay, we've gone too far with this thing.

Speaker 1:

Um, so there is a hard line between discomfort and danger right. Yeah, oftentimes we'll collapse those two things as human beings, but there is a very big difference between things that are actually dangerous to our well being, yeah, and things that are just uncomfortable, and I thought I found that point a couple of years ago and my sister asked me to go skydiving. Have you all been skydiving before? I have, yes.

Speaker 1:

Nope, I have, yes, nope yes yeah, yeah, I went with my 80 year old grandma wow, yeah it was crazy like it was so scary for me I couldn't even talk on the way up.

Speaker 1:

like it was um, I was frozen. It was so scary, you know, I jumped out of the plane. It was fantastic. It was this incredible experience. But I did some research afterwards and I found that the likelihood of me not making it out of that skydive alive was actually far less than the risk I had taken to drive to the skydiving place to begin with. Right yeah, or the risk of being stung by something randomly that day, like there were all these, right, yeah.

Speaker 1:

Or the risk of being stung by something randomly that day. Like there were all these things, yeah. And I started to see like wow, that line of discomfort and danger is actually not driven by where we feel uncomfortable. You know, we're oftentimes not very good at making that distinction for ourselves. We can only look into one place and we have to look at data. The data will tell us is this something that's actually dangerous for us, like squaring off with a grizzly bear, or does this just feel a little bit uncomfortable? It's actually perfectly safe. We just need to reorient our feelings around that thing to be more in alignment with the truth of what's actually happening.

Speaker 3:

What, uh, what's next for you?

Speaker 1:

Um, so I have you heard of the rim to rim to rim, the run across the grand Canyon?

Speaker 1:

Yes, Yep, so you go up and back, right yeah, you start on the ledge on one side, you go all the way across and all the way back and you know my, my sister, who I'm starting to realize in this conversation, is a driver of a lot of my discomfort. Her birthday's coming up and she's like well, why don't we do that for my birthday? Keep in mind she's way more fit and athletic than I will probably ever be, but I think that might be next up on the endurance front of things.

Speaker 3:

Have you done, like what you may not know, this on top of your head, like elevation, distance, like roughly what you're looking at for that?

Speaker 1:

I think it's roughly 42 miles and I could be wrong about this, but like seven, seven or 8,000 feet of elevation, gain total.

Speaker 3:

It's a good. It's a good chunk which it's not too.

Speaker 1:

I figured it'd take me about 20, 22 hours, something like that. Okay Dang.

Speaker 3:

That's crazy.

Speaker 2:

Well Sterling as we wrap this thing up. This has been incredible and we are so grateful for you, your generosity with your time, sharing just some of this incredible insight and wisdom that you've gained through this. So I want to encourage our listeners to check out Hunting Discomfort. And then also really, really exciting coming up in November, right here in Warsaw, we have got the Growth Summit where you are going to be the headline keynote speaker. So thrilled to have you coming to Warsaw, man.

Speaker 1:

I've never been. I can't wait to join you and meet many in person. I'm excited to have this conversation and, don't worry, we'll talk about some uncomfortable things together, but we'll also have a lot of fun. We'll learn some things, and learn some things from each other as well, so I can't wait for the chance to be together.

Speaker 3:

Excellent. So excited to hear your talk at Growth Summit. I know Keith's got a great lineup coming for that and really excited to hear everyone who's going to be on stage that day yes, coming for that, and really excited to hear hear everyone who's going to be on stage that day yes, so we will have a link to that in our show notes for people to register for growth summit, as well as to your books and social media Sterling any parting thoughts for you as we wrap up here today.

Speaker 3:

Also, how can our listeners connect with you?

Speaker 2:

Yes, they want to follow for more.

Speaker 1:

Thank you. Yeah Well, first of all, an honor to join you. This has really been a conversation, and maybe you can tell like I love talking about this stuff more than anything else.

Speaker 1:

So I appreciate the chance to to dig into it with you all. If anybody's looking for me, they can find me at sterlinghawkinscom, and all my social media is pretty searchable. It's just my name, Sterling Hawkins, and what I'll leave you with is this thing that my mom said. Now, I don't know how your parents are, how your listeners' parents are, but my mom says some crazy things she has from when I was little. She said things like it's cheaper to milk a cow than buy one. What she said don't take any wooden nickels, which I actually still don't know what that means.

Speaker 1:

Um, but the one that stuck with me and the one that I want to leave with you is this idea that the way out is through. The way out is through, and what it means to me is we've got to go through the uncomfortable. We've got to go through the uncertain. We've got to go through the pain, the doubt, the insecurities, the embarrassment, the limiting beliefs. We've got to go through the uncertain. We've got to go through the pain, the doubt, the insecurities, the embarrassment, the limiting beliefs. We've got to go through those things, and what we're looking for for ourselves and our lives is on the other side.

Speaker 2:

I love it. I love it, sterling. Thank you so much to all of our listeners and viewers. Thank you for joining us today and we will see you next time on stories that move.

Speaker 3:

Thank you for joining us for this episode of stories that move, brought to you by dream, on studios make sure to subscribe so that you don't miss the next episode and remember if you or your organization have a story you're eager to share with the world, dream on studios is here to bring that story to life don't hesitate to reach out.

Speaker 2:

You can find us on LinkedIn, Instagram, Facebook or visit our website at dreamonstudiosio. We understand how overwhelming it can be trying to bring your vision and story to life, but that's why we exist, and we've walked alongside hundreds of clients doing that very thing. Yeah.

Speaker 3:

We believe every story has the potential to inspire, to move and to make a difference. Let's make yours heard.

Speaker 2:

Until next time, keep moving forward and keep telling those stories that matter.

Speaker 3:

Take care, everyone. We'll see you next time on Stories that Move.