Stories That Move

Kadi Cole | Glass Cliffs

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Discover the secrets to effective leadership and burnout prevention in our enlightening conversation with Kadi Cole, a visionary leader with a diverse background in healthcare and church management. Katie's journey from a small-town upbringing in Montana to a psych nurse in South Florida, and eventually into educational and church leadership, is nothing short of inspirational. She opens up about the importance of setting realistic goals and the detrimental effects of overextending teams. Learn how her personal experiences of feeling both included and excluded have fueled her passion for fostering inclusivity and collaboration within teams, and why every individual's contribution is invaluable.

Kadi's career transitions are a testament to resilience and adaptability. From managing a locked psychiatric unit to handling the high-pressure environment of academic leadership, Kadi shares candid stories of the challenges she faced. She dives into the "glass cliff" phenomenon, where high-capacity female leaders are often placed in nearly impossible situations, leading to burnout despite their high performance. Katie emphasizes the importance of external feedback over harsh internal criticism and the need for high achievers to seek help and recognize their accomplishments. Her insights are a beacon for anyone feeling overwhelmed by their responsibilities.

Balancing work and personal life is critical, and Kadi offers practical advice on maintaining this equilibrium. She discusses the early stages of burnout, characterized by unrealistic ambition, and provides strategies to achieve a well-rounded approach to personal and professional development. Addressing physical fatigue, setting personal boundaries, and reevaluating job responsibilities are key steps in preventing burnout. Join us as Kadi shares her wisdom on creating healthier, more sustainable work environments and inspiring stories that encourage us to keep moving forward.

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kadicole/
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/kadicole
Website: https://www.kadicole.com/

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Speaker 1:

We really love for people to go for big things. We really applaud when people stay all night and make the thing happen. Instead, most of our job as a leader is to actually help keep our team have right-sized goals, and if we're not encouraging that, if we're not championing that, if we're not even holding people accountable to that, we're actually propagating burnout, which only costs us in the long run, like it's bad for people, but it's also bad for our organizations in the long run.

Speaker 2:

Welcome back to another episode of the Stories that Move podcast brought to you by DreamOn Studios. I'm Mason Geiger, alongside my co-host and business partner, matt Duhl.

Speaker 3:

Hey everybody, today we are excited to welcome an inspirational leader and a beacon of transformative change, katie Cole. Katie has been a passionate advocate for leadership, development and community service throughout her distinguished career.

Speaker 2:

Katie's journey began in the health care field, where she worked as a registered nurse in a veterans hospital's mental health unit, but her path took a transformative turn and she stepped into the roles such as the Dean of Student Development and later the Executive Director of Multisite at Christ Fellowship Church, where she played a pivotal role in their explosive growth.

Speaker 3:

Not only has Katie led major initiatives in church expansion and leadership development, but she's also an accomplished author.

Speaker 2:

Her books provide invaluable resources for nurturing leadership talent, especially among women With a master's in human resource development and a lifetime of service. Katie now helps leaders from all spheres maximize their impact through her consultancy Katie Cole and Company. Whether it's technology businesses, multi-site churches or individual professionals, katie's insights have revolutionized leadership strategies.

Speaker 3:

So we sat down to have a conversation with Katie about leadership development, and it took an amazing turn into a deep discussion about burnout that we can't wait for you to hear. So, without further ado, let's dive into our conversation with Katie Cole. Of Katie Cole hey everybody, welcome back to Stories that Move.

Speaker 2:

I'm Matt Duhl. Here with me is always Mason Geiger. How are we doing?

Speaker 3:

today. Everyone so good, really really excited for today we have a special guest with us, katie Cole from Katie Cole and Company. Katie, how are you doing today?

Speaker 1:

I'm doing great guys. Thanks so much for having me on the show.

Speaker 3:

Thanks for being here.

Speaker 2:

I'm so excited, katie, to have you on Stories that Move, so I first had the pleasure of meeting you in our conference room, as we're working on a project together, talking through just kind of your vision for it and I was immediately just drawn to your energy and passion.

Speaker 2:

It's like the vision that you had for this project and I'm like that's someone who I want to hear the story of. Like where did that passion come from? So I'm so excited to be able to unpack your story today for our listeners and honestly get to hear a little bit of yeah what drives you?

Speaker 3:

Yeah, so kick us off. Tell us just who you are, what you do. What is Katie Cullen Company? What are you all up to in the world?

Speaker 1:

Well, sure, well, cheryl, thanks, that's really encouraging. So yeah, I basically work with leadership development in businesses and organizations and my real sort of goal with that is to help us have what I call together futures. And so I think sometimes, when it comes to leadership, particularly in today's day and age, whether you're in the business world, the faith world, the healthcare world, it's just easy to have separation and segregation fall into that. And so I have a real heart to try and help people lead teams together, pull people together more, and that really drives me and sort of is the angle I've been taking the last few years with my company.

Speaker 2:

So where in your kind of journey? Where did that first like idea spark from of seeing the need for that in businesses and organizations?

Speaker 1:

Well, I think it's one of those things. You know, most of us have sort of life callings that come from our own personal experiences and I didn't really know I had this sort of kind of angle on leadership development probably till maybe even just five or 10 years ago. I started seeing it be a lot more clear as I compared myself to other leaders and the ways they were trying to lead their teams or the vision they had for what leadership looked like. But for me, I think, looking back even in my growing up years and in young adult years, I kind of always felt like the person who was a little on the outside looking in. Sometimes that was real, sometimes that was probably in my head. But that sense of knowing there was something to be a part of.

Speaker 1:

And the times when I was included in were some of the highlights of my life, when I was like I'm with my people, we're doing the things I care about.

Speaker 1:

My gifts really matter here, and so do yours. I love that sense of collaboration and community that can happen at those sort of really sweet spot moments in your life. And then I knew a lot what it felt like when I was not in one of those moments and I wanted more of those moments and I wanted other people to have more of those moments and so, as I've grown in my own leadership and kind of my own journey, those were the sort of core values for me that I wanted to bring to the teams I was leading. It's the kind of leadership I wanted to create for myself. It's the kind of partnerships I wanted as I launched my company and wanted to have a bigger sort of footprint. And now I'm very clear on it and I think even my books that I've written or the kinds of work I really focus on now and the advocacy I do is really geared towards looking around and saying who's not here that needs to be here. Like God ordained for a lot of people to be involved in these spaces.

Speaker 1:

Who are we accidentally leaving out and how can we leverage our leadership to bring all of those people in?

Speaker 3:

I love that. I love that. So inclusivity became a major focus for you. It sounds like even back to some early days for you.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, before it was cool or there were like departments and companies that did it. This was sort of just like the way I rolled I realized. But yeah, I think that that piece of everyone knowing they belong is really important to me piece of everyone knowing they belong is really important to me.

Speaker 2:

Whenever those first moments, whenever you were like felt like hey, this is like I've got a seat at the table. This is exciting, this is a spot that I want to be or where I'm called to be what were like some of those maybe, as you're looking back, like unique, like identifiers of, like this is the right spot, I'm in the right seat on the bus, like what are some of those that other people can be kind of looking out for, to know, like hey, I'm in the right spot.

Speaker 1:

I think one of the top ones for me, especially when I look at maybe sort of my highlight or most successful moments where I contributed in a significant way. It's the gifts that I uniquely have and sort of the combination of gifts I've been given match with the needs at the time or the needs of the team. Now I'm a very unique person. First of all, I have a lot of really strong, challenging, strategic gifts that really don't fit in a female body.

Speaker 1:

Most of the time, especially in my younger years, it was always a very surprising package and when I would show up but my gifts were welcome or the insight I have or even the things I was challenging, my leaders or teammates appreciated that about me, because that's one of the things I offer I was like, ah, this is a place I get to actually show up fully as myself.

Speaker 1:

And then there were just as many times where I would try to use those gifts or, you know, bless people with what I thought about things and it was not as welcome and I thought this is not the place for me.

Speaker 1:

I'm going to like drive both of us crazy. So that's probably the number one thing is knowing your primary gifts and and knowing that what you have shows up at the time when it's needed. And I think for me, I've always been someone who's shifted a lot in my roles or even in the organizations I'm connected with, because I sense that and see in my path that God has used me for certain times and there's a thing to be done and I love to bring that thing. And then there's sort of an end to it and I either have another thing to do there or God's got a new door that opens for me, and so some people, I think, are called to be steadies at a place for a long time. I'm more of a person who comes in for a moment and brings my perspective and that makes the change that's needed, and then I kind of move on to the next assignment.

Speaker 3:

Awesome, awesome, well, cool. Well, let's rewind a little bit and get back to some of those foundational moments where some of these things form. We're going to come back and talk a lot more about your company and the work that you're doing, but tell us where are you originally from? What was life like for you in the early days?

Speaker 1:

Well, I live in South Florida now, which has a very unique cultural experience, but I grew up in the mountains of Montana, which is about as opposite as you can get.

Speaker 1:

I've decided and so I grew up in one of the largest cities in Montana which is, I think at the time was maybe 65,000 people. So that was like one of our top cities, missoula Montana, in the middle of the Rocky Mountains, just below Glacier National Park, which I want to recommend to everyone should go see it. It's not as well known as the other parks but it's amazing. And so I grew up in a public high school. My parents divorced when I was young. I think that was probably one of my first experiences of feeling a little on the outside. I was the only kid in my class. I now look back and realize I was the only kid without two parents. I never felt no one ever said anything about it. I never felt any shame about it, but it did make my life very different than a lot of my peers. We went to a tiny little church of about 100 people outside of town, in a little city called Lolo Not even a city. It had one stoplight. It was a truck stop called Lolo Montana, which basically describes it all. But that church experience was really foundational for me because that was one of those places where we showed up and we were just surrounded by loving people who made a space for us. I had all sorts of surrogate dads and surrogate moms. You know, when you've got a single mom who's working full time making ends meet, I needed some extra care and love and actually I think every kid needs that, no matter what family you're from. I realize now, but it was just an incredibly safe and loving place to grow up spiritually, but just grow up as a kid, and so we were involved in a lot and that was a really foundational experience for me. So that place gave me really great values. Montana is a beautiful place in terms of nature, but it's a beautiful place in terms of people. I left. I mean I never locked my front door growing up. We never locked our car doors, it was we camped all the time. It was just a very relaxed and beautiful place and community to grow up in. So I had a lot of wonderful experiences there.

Speaker 1:

I went to college near Seattle in Tacoma and really enjoyed the big city. I ended up majoring in nursing because I was single and loved God and wanted to serve him and I thought that was the only thing really available to me because I ended up not marrying a pastor like I thought I would, and so I sort of grew up with these ideas around what womanhood looked like, especially for someone who wanted to make a difference in the world and really carried a lot of biases against myself. That again, no one ever said to me, but I think the environments I grew up in and the people I watched who were older than me just set a lot of examples that kind of created a pathway for me that I assumed was correct. And so I ended up going to nursing school and that is what brought me to South Florida where I worked at the VA hospital. I was a psych nurse for a lot of years in a locked unit which has a whole level of experience and leadership skills that you learn when that's your population.

Speaker 1:

A university here, a Christian university, where I oversaw the health center and ended up staying there several years, picked up a master's degree and eventually got promoted to dean of students, and so that's where my understanding of really functional leadership and organizational leadership kind of came together with my passion for it is in the educational setting.

Speaker 3:

Wow, wow, that's incredible. Okay, there's so much there. First off, what's a? What's a locked unit when you're talking about a mental institution?

Speaker 1:

So yeah, in mental health there's different levels. So if you think of like in other medical areas, there's sort of like you know, the intensive care and then maybe the step down unit, and then you're on the floor and then you do outpatient rehab. The same thing happens in mental health. So the locked unit is the most restricted unit where, uh, the doors are locked, people aren't allowed to leave.

Speaker 2:

Sometimes the police have to bring them in um, so it's the most intense, uh psychiatric unit. So, yeah, wow, okay, yeah, and just quick, like roughly what age were you whenever you're in that? Yeah, yeah, I mean like fresh out of college.

Speaker 1:

Yes, I'm like five, four, you know, uh, 22 years old, working with you, know veterans who, would you know, are clearly having psychiatric issues. You know, as my husband used to say, he's like I'm not that comfortable with you working there and I worked the night shift because I was single and no one else wanted to work the night shift and so it was me and a couple of techs and 30 unstable men trained to kill. So I look back now and I have a very different perspective. What could go?

Speaker 1:

wrong, but at the time I was like wow, I'm learning so much here, and I really did, I learned so much. Oh, I bet, I bet, yeah, I mean with that, can you?

Speaker 2:

share, like what were some of those key learnings I mean early on in your career being in situations like that where you're having to handle some big, big situations. What were some of those kind of key learnings for you coming out of that stage?

Speaker 1:

Yeah, well, I definitely, as we were talking earlier just about this inclusivity, you know my heart and compassion for people with mental illness got really solidified during those years for me. So for me that was, you know, 30 years ago. And to understand the suffering that happens around mental illness and the tragedy that that is to families and the suffering that people undergo and how little we know about it, especially back then. And I would say we haven't done a great job in the last 30 years making huge strides with that. But we are on the cusp of that and so my interest in mental health, my commitment to advocating for people with mental health issues and even my own personal experience my family have several very close family members who have struggled in those areas that is just a very key passion area for me. So I think that rooted a lot of that compassion and understanding and has really informed a lot of my leadership development strategies the last particularly four to five years, as our society has changed and especially young leaders are navigating mental health issues like never before.

Speaker 1:

That means a lot to me that people don't disqualify themselves or that we don't disqualify them based on that, but I think also it taught me a lot about how to fake it till you make it.

Speaker 1:

You know, sometimes when you're in situations like that, you're a little under resourced, but attitude and composure go a long way in taking charge of a situation. So I definitely found a little bit more leadership, voice and strength in those moments. I also learned a lot working in such a large hospital that was so well-led. The VA in particular, can have a very bad reputation, but I was really trained in incredible leadership and professional skills. I think operating as a team that was such a global team to deal with a very challenged population a minority population that oftentimes gets underrepresented and under cared for but is a really important one to me personally really important one to me personally. That was a really great honor to be a part of work that really made a difference and cared deeply for a community that needed us to care about them, and so it was a real privilege for me to serve there and to honor the men and women who had served us for so many years.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, yeah, that's beautiful. So passion for inclusivity, passion for mental health 30 years ago you were just way ahead of your time. I mean, how does it feel now, today, that those are the buzzwords, those are the things that people are focusing on?

Speaker 1:

It is really kind of an interesting thing. I'm sure we all have those areas in our life where we're like gosh, I can see God positioning me to have a voice in this time and place. And so I come into this world, I think especially too. I was married for 25 years. My husband had a very significant mental health illness after a tragic accident, and so we lived it very much as a family, and so, for me, talking about anxiety in your young adult is something I lived with for many years and had to find my way through.

Speaker 1:

So I am a few steps ahead where maybe many people are finding themselves now, and it's pretty incredible to be able to have real life stories that aren't from books or the internet. That I'm like, actually I know exactly the doctor you need to go to and I know exactly what it feels like to have that weight at that time of the day, and I know there's going, I know there's hope for that. Like I know you don't need to give up. I know there's a way through it. One way or another God's going to bring us through, and so, yeah, I I find it a real privilege to be in those moments with people.

Speaker 3:

Wow, Wow. So what was the then? Just transition, transition for you from the mental health, the nursing to dean of students. I mean that's obviously a big shift. What led you to that?

Speaker 1:

Well, I was leading at the camp at our college campus and it was one of those sort of like wartime general promotions which tends to be a theme for me, I think, getting put into big situations, probably a little underprepared and naive for it. But we had a. Our vice president was away on maternity leave or was about to leave for three months. Our person who was over like residential life and many of the leadership spaces on campus was resigning. We had almost a nearly 100% turnover of our staff for just a variety of reasons, mostly unhealthy culture, and so I was sort of the one left standing and I had just finished my master's degree there, and so they asked if I would fill in, and I was like sure. I've kind of always had the attitude that if God opens a door, if he opens a door for me, my goal is to say yes, I don't open many doors for myself, I let God do that, but if he does it, my job is to say yes and find my way through it, and so that's what I did. It was a pretty overwhelming experience. I was probably 26 or 27 at the time. I was not prepared to have parents who were lawyers and had teenagers coming to our campus for the first time like threatened to sue me. I was not prepared for having to expel students for having a bong in their room. I didn't even know what a bong was Like. I was just like trying to figure all these things out. I was over the discipline system you know I was.

Speaker 1:

But I did care about leadership development. I knew how to run a team. I had been leading really since high school. I kind of found my leadership legs and so I'd just been slowly growing in leadership capacity. I would say I wasn't quite ready for how to handle the stress of it, and especially without leadership around me. So I think the thing that was hard for me was that my leaders were gone. So I was in a new role, kind of outside my depth, without the right support. But as it turns out, I know now it's actually a pretty typical move for high capacity female leaders, which is one of the things I work a lot with now is helping organizations do a better job with female leaders, and one of the things in the research that's so fascinating I know I'm sidetracking here a little bit, but it's this idea of what they call a glass cliff experience.

Speaker 1:

So you've heard of like the glass ceiling where women have a hard time sort of breaking through that really no man in their right mind would ever take.

Speaker 1:

But a woman who doesn't get many opportunities will say yes to it and kind of go into this job. And it's so big and overwhelming that she probably does a great job with it. But she's so burnt out and feels like such a failure because she couldn't like nail all parts of it, and I would say that was a classic move for me in that situation. So I ended up resigning way earlier than I would say to my 27-year-old self now. I would have said why don't you take a two-week vacation? Or the fact that you actually filled a 100% turnover staff in six weeks is pretty miraculous, whoa. And that you housed 90% of the kids without incident.

Speaker 1:

But in my mind at that age and in the way that women are sort of trained to think about perfectionism, I'm thinking of the 10% of kids that I had to like keep in a hotel for six weeks, and I'm thinking about the one staff member that I'm putting on a performance improvement plan. And I'm thinking about the fact that I can't get all this done in less than 60 hours a week. What's wrong with me? Why am I not a good enough leader? I'm clearly not cut out for this and in reality, I was probably killing it and I just didn't know how to measure that for myself or ask for help around it either, and so, yeah, it's a good lesson. I talk about it a lot now when I work with female leaders.

Speaker 2:

Oh, that's good. Yeah, that's amazing. So, with that, what would your encouragement be? Because I'm sure there's a lot of listeners who could be hearing your story and they resonate fully with feeling under equipped. They feel like they're trying to fake it till they make it, not knowing, yeah, what the next step is. How did you kind of grow through that period in your life and what would you encourage me to someone else who's feels like they're in a similar boat?

Speaker 1:

So one of the fascinating things about high performing people is that their inner dialogue really doesn't match what everybody sees on the outside. And I think that would be my biggest encouragement is to believe more the people around you, your performance review, the way your colleagues speak of you, the kind of opportunities you're being given, more than you listen to the voice that's in your head. That's maybe critical or a little extra on the defensive side about how things are going. So I was getting five star reviews but I was feeling like I was like not doing a great job. I should have put a little bit more weight that you don't fire someone with five star reviews, you fire someone with one or two-star reviews, like that's what wisdom and 20 years later gets you.

Speaker 1:

But at the time I was like I'm not going to make it. This thing is a house of cards, it's about to all go down. I, you know I better jump ship before they realize it's me, and instead I was probably someone they would have said gosh, if you feel like that, we actually want to invest in you, let us help you, let's get you coaching. I didn't even think to even admit that to anybody. I was kind of keeping that all into myself. So that would be.

Speaker 1:

My advice is one if you're getting good reviews Now if you're getting one star reviews, that's we have a different conversation about that, but if you're getting fours and fives and your boss is like telling you you're doing a great job and you're not on a review system in the 90 day warning of something you know chances are in comparison to everybody else, you're probably doing an excellent job and your standards for yourself are often much higher than anyone else's standards for you. And so just take a breath, see if you can have an honest conversation with either your leader or someone else you trust on the team. You would trust their wisdom and ask them like give me some really honest feedback on a scale of one to 10. Or give me a, a, b, c, d, f, like how am I actually? Like? Tell me truthfully, how am I actually doing and should I stay doing this? Those answers from one or two people can really right size your inner dialogue and give you the truth. You need to keep moving forward on a calling and not jumping ship too early.

Speaker 2:

So good.

Speaker 3:

So, all right, I can't wait to get to the next part of your story, because I know in your career journey you jumped into church world next. Is that correct? Yes, that's true, and I've. I spent some time in church world and what I know about church world is it's not the friendliest place for women leaders, and you dove in. So walk us through that stuff. I can't wait to hear about it.

Speaker 1:

Well, you know, after I left this deanship, that was eating my lunch. I thought, gosh, it'll be so nice to work with a bunch of really kind pastors who will just sit around and pray all week. So I was trying to take it easy on myself and do the cushy job for a while and give myself a break. Turned out it wasn't that easy. But actually my senior pastor our church was growing really rapidly at the time I was working at the university, so we doubled in size every year for eight years. We started out at before I arrived it was about 80 people. They moved to 160, then 300, then 600, then 1200, then 2400. That's when I started attending and we grew to about 3000.

Speaker 1:

And I was a super volunteer of doing all sorts of things and my leader came to me, the senior pastor, and said we're really interested in hiring you. And of course I was a super volunteer of doing all sorts of things. And my leader came to me, the senior pastor, and said we're really interested in hiring you. And of course I was actually looking for an escape route from my university job and I was like take me, I am in. And so I went to work for the senior leadership team and basically I was kind of the right hand person. No one knew what to call me, so I got a special title, a girl title because I took the place of a pastoral associate pastor title. But I was a girl and I was a very big anomaly and kind of the only female on the team doing leadership.

Speaker 1:

And so they called me the special assistant to the executive team and my job was to really be the right hand of the executive pastor and float around the different parts of this rapidly growing church and help bring organization and structure and leadership development to it. And so it was actually an incredible job for me because I got to float to the most critical areas, a lot of glass cliff areas, I would say. But I was really up for it and hungry for that kind of thing. And so I ran youngults, I reworked the parking lot and helped build new buildings. I did research and launched our first multi-site. I ran communications and learned how to do video production and what you know. The bleeding edge of a print press was, and like all of these things that I had no clue about, nursing did not prepare me for all of that. Psychiatric nursing was really good training for ministry. It turns out, however way better than seminary, I think.

Speaker 1:

But I learned all about that. It was the most fascinating experience. I really loved it, and so I really grew in leadership with the church. We started out at 3000. When I left, almost 20 years later, I was the executive director over Multisite. We had nine campuses by that time, plus an online campus of about 60,000 people. We had 20,000 on site every week, and so my job was to run all of those campuses and lead the campus pastors. And then I also started our school of leadership, which was our main leadership pipeline for launching campuses, and eventually became a college that we hosted on site.

Speaker 2:

So I want to make sure I said you're there for 20 years.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, just about 20 years, just under 20 years, yeah.

Speaker 2:

Coming from this state of like almost burnout at deanship and then stepping into this like very fast paced, exciting, like church world that probably don't have a I mean, you don't have a whole lot of background experience and what were those first like eyeopening moments of like man. Like this is what I feel like I'm called to do in this season. Um, because that is such a switch from what kind of you were doing and yeah just can you process out a little bit?

Speaker 1:

It's not a great question on my end I think, uh, you know, for me, I think my calling is less about a particular industry and for me it seemed like a very natural progression, actually, because I was coming from leading in a, at a very high level of organization, things that were more about things that were going wrong in people's lives or wrong with the system or the kid that wasn't doing the thing we wanted them to do, and I could learn that. I could figure that out. But I'm much more oriented towards helping people grow forward who want to move forward or want to grow. And so for me, moving into ministry plus, I'd been a volunteer since I was like a freshman in high school and so I felt like a ministry person. I didn't grow up understanding that there were callings in the ministry or that you could be paid to work in a church. That wasn't my framework. My 100-person church had no one on paid salary, including the founding pastor. Almost the entire time I was there he was an electrician, bivocational, I think. They gave him a stipend for gas towards the end of his career there. So I just didn't even realize those were options for me, and I certainly didn't have a framework for women doing that, and so I was just so excited to be able to be on the team and to be working in spiritual ways that would really impact people's lives.

Speaker 1:

A few of my big early lessons though it was a big adjustment for me that I did not anticipate actually moving away from frontline ministry, because when you come on staff at a church, your job is to not do ministry. Your job is actually to equip people to do ministry right. The body and the congregation is the church, not the leadership. Sometimes we confuse that because of the way we talk on the platform. But the body is the congregation and they are the saints who are doing works of service. As Ephesians 4 says, when you're on staff, your job is to equip them, and so I loved equipping, but I sure missed leading a group myself. I sure missed working the altar myself. I sure missed being on the drama on the platform myself. That's how old I am, because dramas were cool back then. You know I miss being the one to hand out the food at the food bank.

Speaker 1:

My heart was to serve people. I have a high level of compassion for people who are struggling. That's a huge piece of what motivates me, and so it was a real adjustment for me to actually stop doing those things and have a job, sort of behind the curtain or behind the computer. I loved it, it aligned with my gifts, but I missed my church and it was also easy to stop going to church and so I missed sitting in worship, I missed receiving.

Speaker 1:

It took me a few years to realize that we all have to do church in first person and if you're on staff you also do it in third person. And I probably went too far extreme on third person and like forgot I was still in covenant that I'm like called to this church as a member and then I'm called to be in leadership. It's not the other way around. And so once I got that kind of sorted out right, it really helped me kind of balance my pacing, my own soul care how do I continue to grow spiritually in my leadership even as I'm going through or go in my own spiritual walk even as I'm doing leadership? So that was a really huge piece for me, a really big change.

Speaker 1:

I think the other big transition for me was just working with entirely male staff, so hospitals tend to be primarily women. It was a great way for me to grow up professionally as a young kind of hungry. It was a great way for me to grow up professionally as a young kind of hungry sort of challenge-based person. I had a lot of really strong women who were science-based and many of them came from the military themselves. They could handle me. That was a beautiful gift that God gave me. I think if I had started out in church at 19, I think that could have been disastrous for them and me.

Speaker 1:

Sure sure, I think that would have could have been disastrous for them and me. I appreciate my early years in strong female environments, and the university ended up being very strong female oriented also, especially in student development, and on that side of the house the academic world tends to be more male dominated, but the leadership development, student development side is very female strong. I had an incredible female boss who just knew how to fuel me for running as hard as I wanted to go, and so I just looked at myself and my own leadership as without limits and so I walked into church. Now I think I ruffled a few feathers that I'm probably unaware of still to this day with that attitude. But I didn't even really give it a second thought to run a meeting with a room full of men. I even really give it a second thought to run a meeting with a room full of men. I didn't give it a second thought to get up and redirect people in what they were doing wrong.

Speaker 1:

I try to have a lot of EQ. I try to be very socially aware. I understand the dynamics of church respect and honor, and so I think those two things combined let me make a lot of movement but not create too many challenges. You know too many relationship challenges along the way. Most people who had a problem with me had a problem not with me personally but with me as being a woman and being given leadership. So one of my favorite stories is I did take a couple years off in the middle of that almost 20 years to help care for my mother-in-law who was dying of cancer back in Ohio. So we moved back home to my husband's home in Akron and that's where I got connected with the church there that I work with now again.

Speaker 1:

But when my senior pastor called and asked me to come back and leave multi-site, he had a conversation with some of the campus pastors and said hey, I'm thinking of bringing someone in to oversee you. And they were like oh, we don't know if we want a boss over us. We really love being connected to you. You know, middle management always has a hard time breaking in. But our church was growing and he needed to go up a level and we had enough campus pastors that it was too much for him to really oversee at that point. And so finally they kind of settled down about that, like I guess it's right, I guess we should have someone he's like. Well, what would you think if that person was a woman and they're like oh no, we can't.

Speaker 1:

My wife.

Speaker 2:

And oh.

Speaker 1:

I don't think so you know all this kind of stuff. And then they kind of settled down and he's like, well, what would you think if it was Katie Cole? And they were like, oh well, that would be fine, because I basically grew up with these guys right. So we all came on staff in our late 20s together, we all had offices in the same hallway, we kind of grew up in leadership together and so they got promoted to campus pastors and so for their perspective it was like we don't want a woman leading us, but Katie would be fine. She doesn't really count as, like, whatever we're afraid of. So there were those kind of like funny awkward moments and I think for me I just really appreciate the challenge of this topic.

Speaker 1:

I grew up in a very conservative environment where women really never held the microphone. You know, my mom was allowed to play piano and basically organize all the music of our church for 40 years, but she wasn't allowed to be the, you know, she wasn't the director of the choir. She didn't really, you know, have a prominent leadership role. But I saw her working her rear end off at my house doing practices and rehearsals. And I went to Easter service way before anyone else did, when the church building was still freezing cold because we had to get all the music ready. So I think I appreciate those traditions and even that theological viewpoint. But the church I led at actually shifted its view theologically over the years and so it allowed women to do a lot more. I happened to be in there in that wave of that, so I had a lot more freedom to be fully and bring all the leadership gifts that I had.

Speaker 1:

I'm really grateful that I got to do that at the right sort of kind of momentum space in my own career in leadership, and so I work a lot with churches and faith-based organizations or leaders who come from that kind of background who are trying to navigate.

Speaker 1:

What do we do with these women who have a lot of education, have a lot of giftedness, but we have these beliefs or these cultures and we want to honor that, but we also want to maximize what's in front of us. I'm and again I'm I'm not someone who's trying to get women into leadership. I really want women to have a place if they're gifted, because I want men to have a place if they're gifted, and the goal is to lead together, and so that's one of the areas I've spent the last few years really working hard at, with particularly male church leaders. That's who I tend to work with the most. How can we help stretch open your leadership where you aren't violating any beliefs of your own but you are maximizing all the people that God has brought you, particularly in a church or faith-based organization?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, so during your time in the church you talked a little bit about like the third person and being there. How because I see it a lot burnout in the church because it's very easy to go full speed all in. You feel like it's like I'm, I'm giving all that I have to this cause, um, but how do you protect a little bit of that Like burnout and not, uh, not impact your faith whenever it's like you've given everything to what you feel like is your calling in that season?

Speaker 1:

Yeah, that's so fascinating. So I do a lot of training around burnout for organizations and leaders because there's a whole science behind it that sometimes we can spiritualize, especially in church work or nonprofit work where we feel like sacrifice is the commodity that we get the most points for. It really is Obedience is, and many times we are over-sacrificing what God has asked us to do, and that tends to be where burnout shows up. So the first stage of burnout, in the clinical sort of rundown of it, the first stage, is unrealistic ambition. Unrealistic, which I find so fascinating. It's not I'm tired, it's not that I'm getting grumpy. That's like stage five.

Speaker 1:

The first one is I have unrealistic ambition for myself. So I have things I want to accomplish, I have goals I want to do, I have things I want to prove, and they're more reaching than what is realistic. I might feel like they're a stretch, I might feel like they're a faith goal. I might even feel like God's calling me to it or I just want it. Whatever the motivation, the fact that it's unrealistic is the first sign that I'm setting myself up for burnout. Your boss doesn't do that, your spouse doesn't do that, your kids don't do that, the world doesn't do that, the Joneses don't do that, god doesn't do that no-transcript culture around us endorses.

Speaker 1:

Most of the time. We're really grateful when people stay late in work. We really love for people to go for big things. We really applaud when people stay all night and make the thing happen. Instead, most of our job as a leader is to actually help keep our team have right-sized goals, and if we're not encouraging that, if we're not championing that, if we're not even holding people accountable to that, we're actually propagating burnout, which only costs us in the long run Like it's bad for people, but it's also bad for our organizations in the long run.

Speaker 1:

So we have to keep our eye on the ball, on what really matters to build a healthy, strong, vibrant, alive workforce and trust that that flourishing someone, a team and a culture that's thriving and flourishing is going to make the best work, is going to honor God the most, and that God will reward that kind of leadership in us. I think all of us struggle, especially if you're in the high achiever ranks, which, if you're listening to this podcast, you probably are. I feel like I get points for doing more than everybody else instead of realizing I actually just need to know what God's called me to, and faithfulness and obedience is the thing that actually matters the most, and then God handles the rest, and blessing upon blessing when we move in that kind of flow with the Holy Spirit. So we're our own worst enemy. I'm my own worst enemy. It's something we all really struggle with. We have to use other people in the community around us to help give self-awareness to those areas.

Speaker 2:

Well, that was humbling.

Speaker 3:

I was going to say gut punch, Okay, so. So. So back to the first element of that how do you help leaders to right-size goals? I mean, what does that even look like?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, cause, just real quick as you started, you're talking about that. I just go to, like you hear so often, like your BHAG, like your big hairy, like audacious, god-sized goal. And so it's like everyone's like set that big goal and then drive for that. And it's like, even if you don't get it, it's like you're going to be somewhere close. And it's like, and what you're saying is like don't do that.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I think I mean I'm really conscious of doing holistic leadership development and holistic organizations, because when you have a BHAG in one area, that means you have to like cost something somewhere else. Right, you guys know this because you do a lot of projects. You can't win everything on the triangle at one time, right? Something that you're either going to have way more budget, or it's going to take longer, or the quality is going to go down, like you're, something has to give for something else to win. So part of my approach to leadership development and really helping people pace their own personal lives as leaders and then having that overflow into the teams that we run, is that we win.

Speaker 1:

We have big BHAG goals on our whole life. So, like I have a big life that I want to have for myself. I want to have a vibrant family life. I want to be physically healthy. I want to be in a home that I love, that I can be generous with to other people. I want to have a great community of friends. I want to have work that I love, that I can be generous with to other people. I want to have a great community of friends. I want to have work that I love that makes a difference. I want to be able to use my gifts in like anointed ways, like those are big goals that most people don't get to achieve, especially at the same time. But if I have a BAG in just one of those areas instead of a mini one in all of them for a life big goal, then I'm really missing the point.

Speaker 1:

One piece of the pie is thriving and all the others are suffering. So I always say, like, give yourself a report card in the wellness circle of your life. What are all the categories that you care about? I care about my family. I care about my relationships. I care about my physical health. I care about my friendships. I care about my work. I care about my home. I my home. I care about my hobby. I like to golf. Whatever's in your pie doesn't matter. What's important to you, what are the things that matter in your life?

Speaker 1:

And then give yourself a grade on each one A, b, c, d, f. We all know the grading system. And what's your average? Do you have a 2.6? Doesn't matter if you have an A plus at work. If you've got an F in your marriage, what's the average? So am I passing all my classes? So I tell my son who's in college like C's get degrees, b's get scholarships, a's get a party. So like you can choose your thing. But like three C's, two A's and an F isn't getting you anywhere, right, you're not. You're not making progress in life when you're doing that. So a solid B minus in everything is way better than two A's and four F's. And we don't measure our lives that way because we tend to think very one-dimensionally rather than multi-dimensional.

Speaker 1:

Where our whole life is winning over time, that's where you get that compounding interest in all aspects of your life over time. I'm in my early fifties. I'm just now beginning to see that right. I'm just now beginning to see that I've always prioritized family and so my relationships with my family, my extended family, my in-laws. I maybe was only able to give little deposits, but my sister-in-law of my stepdad we've had every Thanksgiving together for 30 years. We are very close now. Now, if I hadn't had that one little priority every single year, I wouldn't have this compounding interest of a woman I dearly love, who makes me laugh all the time, and we have a 30 year relationship. It would be different. I could have chosen different things. That was one of the things that was important to me. And so same with health, same with emotional health, same with spiritual health. There's compounding interest. You want your whole life to win and your whole life to be a BHAG, not just one component.

Speaker 3:

So, and I think the place that a lot of us go that I hear you speaking to, is that we compartmentalize in such a way that it's like I'm aware that I'm failing in this area over here, okay, but I'm doing great over here, so I'm just going to brush this aside. I'm doing great over here, so I'm just going to brush this aside. What you're saying is that the failure of that is going to creep into all other parts of you and bring the whole thing down Right.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, if you've already got an A in something, just let that thing ride. Like you probably have five years of low maintenance in that we stay in our A plus areas because they make us feel better about ourselves, not because they help us steward a better life. It's kind of like working out at the gym. So I started working with a trainer two years ago. It's absolutely kicked my butt, but he always tells me I have Devin's voice in my ear all the time. He's like the exercise you really don't want to do is the one you need the most. Right, the stretchy. The stretch exercise in your cool down that's hard to breathe in. That's the one you need to focus on breath the most. It's like the thing I'm avoiding is actually the signal that my body needs it more than everything. And it's amazing when you stretch your glutes better, your squat gets better. When you work on your ankle strength, somehow you can bench press more, like it's the weirdest thing that it's all connected, but it's true in our life also no-transcript.

Speaker 1:

Wow. It's the opposite from leadership, where, in leadership development, we focus 80% of our effort in our strength areas.

Speaker 3:

Yeah.

Speaker 1:

Because there's no need to work on our weaknesses. You'll never get good at them. That's not how God gifted you. You don't need to be someone you're not. When it comes to character and stewarding your life, you have to go to the area that's the weakest, because your character will always be the limit to your success. So you put 80% of your effort in your least able space. So if I'm emotionally unaware, I got to put 80% of my effort for the next 18 months in becoming more emotionally healthy. I need to go to a therapist. I need to sit down and talk with my spouse once a week. I need to be reading a book once a month. I need to be listening to only those kind of podcasts. I don't need to double down in my A plus areas. I need to double down in the thing that's weakest. And when I get emotionally healthy, my job gets better, my parenting gets better, my health awareness gets better. I'm nicer to people on the road, like everything gets better when that character issue moves forward.

Speaker 3:

Okay, so I want to, I want to keep unpacking this, because you said something really important here, because I mean what you described on the leadership side. I mean that's. I mean some of the Marcus Buckingham, strength Finder stuff of just hey, this stuff that you have in your DNA, your God gifted stuff, this is the stuff you were put on planet Earth for. Lean into that. You're not, you're not, you're not going against that thinking and what you're saying.

Speaker 1:

No, You're saying no. You're saying you're at work.

Speaker 3:

You should do that. You're saying when it comes to just the personal heart level, what's going on behind the scenes, the areas that are kind of coming apart at the edges, at the seams, those are the things you're saying like you got to go in all in on that.

Speaker 1:

Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying. It's. I think one of the challenges we have in our culture is that we tend to read books and listen to experts about work way more than we listen to it about other areas of our life, and so we tend to extrapolate something meant for one part of our life and we ascribe that to our whole life, and that's just not how. That's not how life works. So you can't come, you can't like, know how to be a great boss at work and come home and be a great boss over your kids. Parenting and bossing are not the same skill sets, and so we especially when you're successful at work we tend to apply those same strategies.

Speaker 1:

So I saw this in the hospital all the time when someone would have a health crisis of any kind there. You know, I worked in the nursing home at the VA also for a while, and these kids would come in, the kids of the older people in the hospital, and these kids are 40 and 50 years old and they've got big careers and they're coming in hot like a lawyer would and they're barking out orders and blah, blah, blah, blah. They're coming in hot like a lawyer would and they're barking out orders and blah blah, blah blah. I'm like you're a child trying to help your 85 year old dad have some dignity as he dies.

Speaker 1:

This requires a different skill set than what you do 50 hours a week. Do you have it in you, like? Do you have it in you? Are you only going to be his lawyer as he dies? That's the choice you have, and so most of us, we take these learnings from work and we apply it, and a lot of the truths can translate, but not all of it, and I think that's where we tend to turn off our thinking a little bit and think that life is about work and work flows over into everything else, rather than realizing life is about life and work is one component of it, but I need a whole life that honors God and lives towards my values, not just one part.

Speaker 2:

What you got to say to that, yeah, you're hitting the home right now. So you spoke a little bit about we talked a little bit about burnout earlier Someone who, let's say, is teetering on that edge of burnout and they're hearing this like and they're doing their scorecard and they feel like man, I'm like, I'm F's in all of them, like I just feel like I'm trying, working around everything and it's just I've got nothing left to give yet I feel like I'm giving everything. What? What would you say? Like, where's the first step? Start here, get this figured out and then start to work your way through it.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, well, first of all, I would say chances are you don't have Fs in everything, but fatigue will make you feel like you do, and so it probably feels like life is crashing down, but I can almost guarantee you it's not crashing down as hard as it feels like Not all is lost. So that's the first thing. The second thing would be the number one step to take towards recovering from burnout is fatigue, is physical fatigue. You have to rest your body and give your brain a chance to rewire and replenish itself. So it didn't take you three weeks to get into burnout. It's not going to take you three weeks. It's kind of like pregnancy weight. It takes you nine months to put on all that weight. It's got to take at least nine months, if not five years or longer, to take it off. And so give yourself a moment. You know I was love. I see this a lot with pastors. I'm just like wouldn't it be great if the rest of the world besides senior pastors could take a I don't know three months paid sabbatical?

Speaker 1:

and just like rest and recuperate in the mountains or overseas or something like that. Most of us actually have to keep our jobs going while we recover, like our children are still our children and we are recovering from burnout. So one of the first things is to really give yourself some rest and try to unplug from as many things as you possibly can and just get good sleep at night. If you're really in some final stages of burnout, you're probably not sleeping either, and so seeing your doctor and getting an actual physical exam is probably one of the first steps to do, because physical breakdown is one of the first signs of burnout and it's one of the last signs. When it's one of the last signs, you're actually having some pretty strong hormonal changes. Your corticosteroids are hijacked, you're having a hard time getting your anxiety under control, you're probably clinically depressed. So there's medications that can help restore your body and some health changes that can help sort of bring and restore health back to you. But you got to know what those are and get on those things to be able to move forward, and then the next step would really be to get some outside help. So the people in your family who love you and care about you being very honest about where you are talking with the support system. You have your physical health, like your medical doctor, a counselor. If you don't have one, finding a good therapist. There's a lot of great counselors online that make it a lot more easily acceptable. This is a very common experience, especially in the 2020s. I mean this is 80% of people are coming with this kind of stuff to mental health providers. It's one of the reasons why it's sometimes hard to find one in your community. So go onto the websites betterhelpcom and the other websites where you can find great counselors and just begin the conversation of how do you unwind the sort of hole that you're in. There's ways and steps out, but having some professional guidance will really help, and then you're going to have to start saying no to some things. You know you can't recover from burnout and still be cooking all day long out, every night, full. You full travel, teams on the weekend and big jobs, and I always say work probably has some low hanging fruit that you could get rid of.

Speaker 1:

I would really relook at your job description. Are you overdoing work? High performers tend to love to help other people, and if it's hurting you, then it's not really helping anybody, and so especially for people who come from a faith background. So Jesus says you know, don't walk just one mile with someone like carrying, like go two miles. But he doesn't say go 18, certainly doesn't say go 34.

Speaker 1:

So are you, you know? Are you on mile 20 for someone else's work? Are you covering for someone else's failures? Are you the guy who stays up late at night because the group work didn't get done? Are you the one that always shows up for the client in the end hour? Are you the person who shows up early and bring snacks? Like, do you have to bring snacks? Is that in your job description? Do you have to be the one who cracks the joke? Are you always the guy that goes out to lunch every time? Are you always the person that we rely on? Like, do you have to do all of that? And are you answering emails at night? Can you turn that off at six? Will anyone really care? Probably not. Like.

Speaker 1:

There's some really simple personal boundaries that can give you a lot of space and replenishment, but you have to be willing to do it. I would say if you were diagnosed with cancer and you decided you wanted to live, you would go through a lot to live. Recovering from cancer is a big battle. Burnout is the same way you have to decide you want to live and you want to make it, and then you're going to have to go through some fire to reestablish your life and be able to enjoy it again. But you can do it, yeah, how?

Speaker 3:

much deprogramming has to happen. In that I mean what you just said. I mean right there. I can just imagine the number of people who would fight back and just list thing after thing of why they can't do some of the things that you're recommending.

Speaker 2:

I think there's so much identity that gets tied into our work. Yeah, it's like even hearing you list off some of those things I'm like. But I enjoy doing those things. There's so much value that, like, I feel out of that, but it's like no, absolutely Like those are the things that you have to say no to to create space for these other. But yeah, so I, yeah, I'd love to hear your, your response to yeah. What kind of rewiring is required to get back to a healthy space?

Speaker 1:

Yeah, there's actually quite a bit, I think, at the core. Most people not everyone, but most people at the core of burnout is people pleasing, which is really a wrong name. It should really be called self-pleasing, because we do those things partly for other people, but we do them because they make us feel good about ourselves. Right? I like being the guy who does this. I like being the person who shows up and is this person. I like helping people. I like it. It's part of what helps me feel alive and me feel good.

Speaker 1:

And it is better to give than receive, but if you're doing it at the cost of the more important things, because it's not just about giving, it's about saying yes to this, but you have to say no to that over there, to say yes to this. So you have to evaluate what am I saying no to? Is what I'm saying no to being the kind of mom or dad I want to be when I get home at night? Am I saying no to actually having physical health into my 80s? Am I saying no to remembering to call my parents even though they're aging? Am I saying no to knowing my neighbors and sharing with them love, or am I only saying yes to the things that impress people where my paycheck is connected, and it's the people I spend the most time with, and I don't like disappointing others because I don't like the way that makes me feel about myself. Right, you get disappointed all the time by people. All the time it doesn't make you hate them, doesn't make you fire them, but we don't want to disappoint anyone, and so that rewiring really has to come down. That's why working with a therapist or a coach is so important, because you have to really unwind and sort of peel off the layers of where is this actually coming from?

Speaker 1:

And sometimes it is. I mean, oftentimes it's coming from really good-hearted people who really love others, and that's why they went into the work they do. I want to serve, I want to help people. We see this a lot in nonprofits. We see this a lot in churches. We see this a lot in the service industry healthcare, particularly, public servants, the military. These are people. These are not selfish jobs you don't like. Go into the military for yourself, right, you're putting your life on the line. But sometimes we can spiritualize or make ourselves feel better about this act of service and at times when we get so addicted to the feeling it gives us we're no longer really serving others, we're really just serving ourselves, and that's where we start to see burnout come into play.

Speaker 3:

Wow, wow, okay. So let's say you have someone who is there. They see what's going on, they are hearing what you're saying and they're saying, look, I'm all in on this. They are hearing what you're saying and they're saying, look, I'm all in on this. I know I need to right the ship, but I have a boss that's over me that says this. Or in church world, I have a group of elders who are expecting this. Or in nonprofit world, I have a board of directors who are telling me what do you say to that person who is maybe experiencing leadership that feels like it's holding them back from getting things on the right path?

Speaker 1:

Well, I think that's a very common experience and it's actually a big reality to this is that we do feel like a lot of people have expectations of us. We want to meet them, we want to do a good job. So, I think, really diving into those and clarifying for yourself personally, or even with those people, what do you actually mean by this? Most of the time when I work with leaders, in particular around burnout, when we really take a look at their job description, this one line says we want you to do this thing by this date, but over the years they're doing 14 things. Three weeks earlier than that. They've they've expanded the role and it could be that that is exactly what needed to happen and the elders or your bosses love that about you. But you do get to go back and renegotiate that, because you actually did that on your own and we don't want to now lower the standards of what we're doing.

Speaker 1:

But if it's not really that big of a deal, I mean, I oversee a lot of staff. A lot of times they're doing stuff and I'm like oh, that's weird, but knock yourself out In their mind. What I've learned over the years is many times they're like she asked for that one time, and now she wants it every time, and so they're spending 25% of their hours on things I don't care about. Or that was like so two years ago, or that was like so two years ago, or that was so two months ago. That is no longer a priority. Part of what I haven't done as a leader is double checked on what are you working on, what are you not working on? And? But as an employee or as a follower, it's my right to be able to raise the issue and say like, hey, do you still want me to be working on this? Or the other thing you can do is a time study. I'll have a lot of people do this where it's like I'm doing these are all the tasks that I'm doing.

Speaker 1:

Now your job description is probably 10 things. You probably have 100 things that you're doing, and how long does it take me each week or each month to do all of these things? And then I go to my boss and I say, all right, in a month you have however many hours 40, like two or 300 hours let's say I have 300 hours in a month. I've got this many things. That equals 425 hours in a month. Which do you want me to take off the list? Because, especially in employment, we have a lot of capacity to do this. It feels like you're tied because your paycheck is connected, but your employment is a contract between you and your employer for a certain amount of work, for a certain amount of pay. And so when you bring this list and you're like, hey, you contacted me for 40 hours a week, or even 50 hours a week if I'm salaried and I have 25% more hours that you've delegated to me, give your leader the opportunity to take a bunch of things off the list and right size that job description.

Speaker 1:

It is amazing how much we have lost in just miscommunication and how we are burning ourselves out by old assignments that aren't really relevant anymore. So that would be one of the first steps I would do is like kind of that inner healing or that inner look and questioning myself. Secondly would be actually getting didactic with my leader and measuring it out and challenging the assumptions I'm making about my job. And then I think the third thing would be is to ask myself what do I actually want to be doing? Because it could be that the things they cross off are actually the things you love doing the most, and you added them because you really want to do them, because that's actually where your heart and passion is, and you're in a job that doesn't really line up with that, like you thought it would, or maybe like it did five years ago.

Speaker 1:

So, if I can stop and say, gosh, if I had 40 hours a week to invest in anything, what would I want to invest in and what kind of gifts would I want to bring to the table? And then match that up. And maybe it's time to really think and pray and look for something that tweaks. And, before you even do that, like, go to your boss and say, hey, these are the things I actually want to start doing more of. Is there opportunity for me to do that?

Speaker 1:

We are in a hiring crisis right now. Every leader out there knows they cannot replace their team with people probably half as good. So it is an employee's benefit right now to renegotiate your role and right size it to the things you care about, and let your boss know the things you want to grow into. They will keep that in mind. They may not be able to give you something right now, but, boy, if you can have your ideal job in six months, staying where you're at, through healthy boundaries and conversation that is worth a lot more than jumping ship and going somewhere else where you don't know what you're getting.

Speaker 3:

Okay, so this has been incredible. Talk to us now about what you are doing through your business to help people with these ideas, these topics.

Speaker 1:

Oh yeah, thanks for asking. So I spend a lot of my time working with organizations on sort of the cultural side of these topics. How do we build environments where everyone brings their leadership to the table? We can have these kinds of healthy conversations. We're building cultures where people really get to thrive in their work life, and then I also spend a lot of time working with individuals on these kinds of insights.

Speaker 1:

So I do a process called life planning, where we take two days and really look through what are all the pieces of your life that are contributing to where you're at now, and do you want to stay there or is there somewhere else you want to go? And so I love that kind of work. Life plans are my favorite thing that I get to do. You can tell I'm very passionate about these kinds of topics and helping leaders find their way forward and then coaching leaders to stay in those healthy places or stretch their leadership to be more inclusive.

Speaker 1:

So that's really where I focus most of my time, and then I am partnered with some nonprofits to try and help churches really become organizations that really offer great spiritual formation and are great places to work and where everyone gets to be a part of their local church. Again, I still have that church experience from my growing up years. I want that for every single person and unfortunately in today's world I see so many people feeling like they don't fit in at church or there's no return for them, it's not worth the investment, there's no ROI for them and I just think, gosh. There's so much richness in a local church body to be discovered.

Speaker 2:

I'm working on creating tools and helping people find each other in their local church, so if someone wants to connect with you these services, what's the best way for them to get in touch with you and your team?

Speaker 1:

Yes, everything is available on my website at Katie Cole and that's spelled K-A-D-I-C-O-L-Ecom. Yeah, all the different kind of aspects that I offer and some of the resources that I have are all available there. And then you can also follow me on social media at Katie Cole.

Speaker 3:

Awesome. And then I know you've written a couple books. Tell us about your books and, you know, just give our listeners a little bit of idea of some of the topics that you unpack in those.

Speaker 1:

Oh sure, thanks. So my first book took me eight years to write. It's called Sticky Note Leadership. It's only 50 pages. You can read it in 30 minutes. It's a real easy read. But it is perfect if you are someone who is struggling and delegating or you're feeling overworked. It's really about how you can lead more and do less, and so if you're kind of spinning in that burnout world or you're wondering, you're like my plate is too big, sticky note leadership is a great kind of leadership 101 basic framework to manage your team better.

Speaker 1:

My second book is Developing Female Leaders, which I wrote in just a few months and that is based on research about how women, particularly from a faith background, can really limit themselves in leadership and what we as leaders, particularly male leaders, can do to sort of help them overcome those boundaries and barriers that we face to really get the most out of the females on our team. And then my last book is called Find your Leadership Voice. I wrote it in a week and I say these things in case anyone's out there an aspiring author. There's no one magic way to write a book. I have proven it. And so this I wrote for women, particularly who are like gosh I am stuck in my head. I am driven by perfectionism. I'm having a hard time Now that I'm in leadership.

Speaker 2:

I'm having a hard time knowing when to speak, when to not speak. I'm not sure if I said the right thing. I'm trying to stand up for myself, but I don't know the right way to do that. It's really about the time to be on Stories that Move, sharing your story. Thank you for tackling some hard, hard topics and discussions. I'm really excited to dive into those books and learn more about what you do, and this has been great.

Speaker 1:

Amazing. Can I give one more shout out?

Speaker 2:

I should actually talk about this.

Speaker 1:

This is the project that we met each other on.

Speaker 1:

So one of the newer projects that I'm working on I'm very excited it's just getting going is called Momentum Marketplace, and this is actually one of those tools I was talking about for churches to help connect teenagers and young adults who feel called to a career that's not in ministry.

Speaker 1:

Sometime in churches we can overemphasize callings into full-time ministry or vocational ministry. This is for the other 90% of young adults in your church that don't have that calling, but they know they want to do something for God, and we connect them through a mentoring program with high capacity marketplace leaders in your local church put them through a mentoring program together and we have just seen some really catalytic experiences for the students, for the mentors and particularly for church body life. So if you are a marketplace leader in particular and particularly for church body life, so if you are a Marketplace leader in particular and you want to learn more about that, you can go to my website or go to MomentumMarketplaceorg and we've got all sorts of information. I'd love to talk with you about bringing that to your church. We're just opening it up this summer and launching publicly, so you guys are getting the sneak preview of all of that.

Speaker 3:

Awesome, awesome, so good. Katie, thank you so much for the work you do. Thank you for all of the glass ceilings you've broken through and glass cliffs you've bravely stood on and ventured out on. Yeah, really cannot thank you enough for this time. It's been awesome. So thank you to all of our listeners for tuning in to this great episode of Stories that Move. We look forward to seeing you next time. Thanks so much. Thank you for joining us for this episode of Stories that Move brought to you by Dream On Studios.

Speaker 2:

Make sure to subscribe so that you don't miss the next episode. And remember, if you or your organization have a story you're eager to share with the world, Dream On Studios is here to bring that story to life.

Speaker 3:

Don't hesitate to reach out. You can find us on LinkedIn, Instagram, Facebook or visit our website at dreamonstudiosio. We understand how overwhelming it can be trying to bring your vision and story to life, but that's why we exist, and we've walked alongside hundreds of clients doing that very thing. Yeah.

Speaker 2:

We believe every story has the potential to inspire, to move and to make a difference. Let's make yours heard.

Speaker 3:

Until next time, keep moving forward and keep telling those stories that matter.

Speaker 2:

Take care, everyone. We'll see you next time on Stories that Move.