Stories That Move

Michael Pahl | WinonaIT

• DreamOn Studios • Season 1 • Episode 4

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Embark on a voyage of discovery with Michael Pahl, the President and Owner of  WinonaIT, as he recounts the captivating story of his ascent from a quaint town to the international corridors of Switzerland's educational sphere. Through Michael's lens, we unravel the fabric of risk and reward that tailors the IT entrepreneurship landscape, emphasizing the essential role of a learning-centered company culture and the profound impact of personal connections. This episode promises to guide you through the trials and triumphs of a technology career, underpinned by a commitment to integrity and the pivotal moments that define a business's journey to excellence.

As we navigate the waters of Michael's professional odyssey, we uncover the practical wisdom of clear communication and stress management, all while stepping boldly beyond our comfort zones. The conversation steers towards WinonaIT's mission, strategic partnerships, and the quest to emulate the transformational success of Japanese brands of yore. Fostering stronger customer, employee, and vendor relationships emerges as a linchpin in this narrative, revealing how these bonds can propel a company to redefine an industry's benchmarks of quality and service.

Finally, we cast an introspective gaze at the future, where AI reshapes our work and demands continuous adaptation. We grapple with questions of ethics and the potential for AI to unlock new realms of creativity. Michael's personal vignettes of traversing COVID-19 travel chaos and finding solace in survival camps and table tennis add a rich layer to our discourse, ensuring that this episode is a tapestry of tech insights, heartfelt stories, and the relentless pursuit of integrity that fuels the spirit of entrepreneurship. Join us, as Michael Pahl shares his riveting tale that's as much about technological innovation as it is about navigating the human connections at the heart of business.

Michael Pahl LinkedIn: ⁠https://www.linkedin.com/in/michael-pahl-906bab27/⁠

Winona IT
Website: ⁠https://winonait.com/⁠
LinkedIn: ⁠https://www.linkedin.com/company/winonait/⁠
Instagram: ⁠https://www.instagram.com/winonait/⁠
Facebook: ⁠https://www.facebook.com/WinonaIT

Speaker 1:

So I was like, wait a minute, there's got to be a market opportunity for these types of services. Man, the IT world is corrupt and there's a lot of problems with it, and I thought maybe I could start something that could work to redeeming this industry. In a way, that was the spark that got things in motion.

Speaker 3:

Hey everyone, welcome back to Stories that Move. I'm Mason and, as always, I've got Matt here with me, and today we are diving into a story that is a bit closer to the tech world, but with a twist. That's all about real life, resilience and making a difference.

Speaker 2:

Yes, we are chatting with our good friend, michael Paul, the man behind Winona IT, and his story is amazing. It's about more than just tech. It starts with his childhood in South of Philadelphia and moves to an unexpected chapter in Switzerland and leads him to building a business that's all about doing things the right way.

Speaker 3:

So let's get into it and hear straight from Michael how he navigates the world of IT with a compass set on integrity, how he's built a culture around learning and growth at Winona IT.

Speaker 2:

Michael, thanks so much for joining us today. Welcome to the Stories that Move podcast and we'll just dive in Love being here, matt Dool, here with my good friend and co-host, mason Geiger. Good to see you, mason, yeah you as well, and today we have with us Michael Paul, also a good friend, president and owner of Winona IT. We go way back and recently, in the last few years, we've had the privilege of working together, our company working with yours, your company working with ours.

Speaker 2:

You guys are a huge part of this facility that we're sitting in, helping us with our infrastructure and supporting us from the IT side. So we're grateful for you, for your team, and just thrilled to have you here today to dive into a little bit more of your world, whether it's hunting, whether it's IT and everything in between. So thanks for being here.

Speaker 1:

I think there's going to be a story later on about like a 25-hour car drive with Matt and I, so we'll get to that. Oh, my goodness, that rekindled the relationship, didn't it?

Speaker 2:

Oh, that is so true. That is so true. Yeah, we'll definitely have to unpack that. We'll definitely have to unpack that. Well, Michael, to kick us off today, start off by just briefly sharing a little bit about yourself. Yeah, Just, you know where you're from, what growing up looked like for you.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, so I originally grew up right outside of Philadelphia I was about 45 minutes or so outside of Philadelphia a town called Kennett Square. Actually, I grew up in a town called Landenburg, pennsylvania, then moved to a town called Kennett Square. It's actually the mushroom capital of the US. You know we refer to ourselves as the orthopedic capital, but where I grew up was the mushroom capital.

Speaker 1:

Oh, wow, so there's mushroom farms everywhere where I grew up. If you just go to Kroger Meyer, find a pack of mushrooms, flip it over, it's going to say Kennett Square, pennsylvania on the back of it. Interesting.

Speaker 3:

Wow.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, it's kind of interesting. I lived there until I think I was about 15 years old and my dad I remember like it was yesterday he comes home and he tells me he got a new job and it's in Switzerland. And I was like I never really, I mean I'd heard of this country, of course, but know nothing about it whatsoever. I remember jumping on YouTube and like watching a quick video and, if I recall correctly, it was like a little bit of a weird cultural like. There was yodeling and some other stuff.

Speaker 3:

I was like I don't really know what to think about this.

Speaker 1:

But got a chance to move over and spent my high school years in Switzerland. I went to an international school in Basel Basel, switzerland, actually where, where Medardis is currently headquartered, basel is actually the pharmaceutical capital of the world, so a lot of really big name pharmaceutical companies headquartered there in Basel. I lived right on the border of France, germany and Switzerland. I was right at the cross section of those three countries, so live there for a number of years. My parents actually bought a summer house here in Winona Lake and they have some family in the port Indiana about an hour north of here. So I'd spent a month or two every summer coming back to the US and living here in Winona Lake and you know it's a great spot in the summer.

Speaker 1:

So when I was done with high school and I knew my parents were going to continue to live overseas, it just felt like a really good fit for me to kind of stick to what I knew I did. My connections on the East Coast had kind of moved on or, you know, went to college and kind of dispersed. This was kind of home now and I've been here ever since. That was 2009. I think I moved, moved here.

Speaker 2:

So yeah, awesome.

Speaker 3:

So, growing up in Philly, you're an Eagles fan. Die hard Eagles fan, okay.

Speaker 2:

So going back to you know, life in Switzerland how much do you feel like that really shaped you who?

Speaker 1:

you are.

Speaker 2:

I mean moving at 15, that's a huge time frame to make a move like that yeah.

Speaker 1:

Man, don't make me cry thinking about it, no, it's absolutely the biggest. I'm trying to think I think it's the most impactful thing you can really do in your childhood to be uprooted and just thrown into a different culture. And what I learned? That I think I can't. I can't recall life as a 15 year old super well like what was I like personally and what my personality. But what that taught me was taking a chance is it can have huge payoff. I mean, I look at my time in Switzerland as just amazing, just amazing. And I saw a lot of people similar situations to me, move over there, go to the international school and just didn't take advantage of the opportunity, ended up getting out as soon as they could. They were kind of afraid to assimilate, afraid to learn the language, and they just, they just totally missed out their, their kind of adversity to change.

Speaker 3:

Sure, they were hugely detrimental, I think, to them.

Speaker 1:

And so for me, man, I learned the language, I learned the culture, I did the best I could and I just look at that as a huge highlight in my life, and it's it's definitely changed how I see the world, it's changed how I view myself and it's definitely changed, I think I'm I'm not afraid to take a risk, because I took one. That was one of the best things that's ever happened to me.

Speaker 2:

And you came out of on the other side just fine, yeah, absolutely.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, that's awesome, that's awesome.

Speaker 2:

I love that. So then, fast forward for us a little bit. So, about 2009,. You move here. What was the moment for you that you really started to lean in on technology? And then and maybe these things aren't mutually exclusive, but then entrepreneurship, sure.

Speaker 1:

So the tech story actually started in Switzerland. Okay, it's kind of funny. Really good friend of mine in high school unfortunately no longer with us, but he got grounded in high school and part of him getting grounded was he had to give up his computer. So I remember he called me and he said hey, for 200 bucks you can have my gaming computer I just built with. With one caveat I'm going to keep this case because I'm going to rebuild. You know when I'm when I can.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, and he gave me a box full of computer parts and you know, there was a video card in there, ram, a couple hard drives, and that was. That was my very first introduction to I'll say the tech world. I had to research how to put this thing together. I had to buy parts. I had to go down to this computer shop that they didn't speak any English.

Speaker 1:

I had to kind of negotiate and and and, and you know, figure out what I needed, Jack and I put this thing together and, man, you're going to get kicked out of this. But there's this game back then called crisis. Do you? Does that ring a bell? Okay, it was like I think Nvidia and I think at the time it was ATI, who's now AMD they were touting this game as like the most demanding game for a gaming computer Like there was.

Speaker 1:

You had to spend all kinds of money to get this thing to run and I just I put it together and I was just fascinated that I could put this thing together. It could turn on. I could, you know, have a video game even run off this thing that I just built. That was basically scraps a minute ago, you know, and that was kind of that was what got me interested. Yeah, and it's so funny. I remember hearing top people in tech today say that what got them started was putting together a PC in their in their teen years. And that's that's my story too. That was my introduction.

Speaker 2:

That's so awesome.

Speaker 1:

Yeah.

Speaker 2:

That's so cool. So I mean, what was next then? What was the next step for you where you started to lean in of like? This was really fun. I learned some cool things, but this is what I think I want to do with my life.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, that's a good question. So I, I, I came to Grace College here in Winona Lake and I remember getting some really good advice from my dad. I remember hearing him say that there's a bright future in tech. You know, and, and this is 2009. It's not like it was 50 years ago, but I think you know, iphone had just launched I mean it was. It was. It was a different time than today and you know, I just I remember him saying that there's going to be a lot of career opportunities and I decided to major in let's see what was it called? Management of Information Systems. Okay, a little bit of programming, a little bit of traditional tech. I also majored in in business to try to just broaden capabilities there, and I got a job my freshman year at Staples and you know, there there's a lot of complaining. I could do about the job, but at the end of the day, I was fixing computers, I was selling computers, I was learning about you know how how retail worked. It was good, it was a good first job for me.

Speaker 1:

And I only did that job for probably six to eight months before I got an internship at Sylvia's Insurance Group in 2010. But that was that was just my first customer service and again selling tech. And yeah, I think it.

Speaker 3:

I think it kind of opened the door for me because I'm sure it staples like in the customer service role. Like you get a, I'm sure, a wide variety of people coming in huge needs and so having to meet them at their level of kind of. I'm sure that was.

Speaker 1:

Definitely. I mean, there were plenty of customers that would come in and they'd say, hey, my number one priority is budget. And so you're learning. Okay, you know how do I get them what they need, but focus on that. Yet other customers that would come in and they wanted the computer in the case and the printer and the software, and so you got a. You got to learn how to do that. I remember a colleague of mine formatting a computer completely and you know, this poor woman came in and all of her pictures were gone. So but I mean, but what you learn is you learn how either how to deal with that situation or how to not deal with that.

Speaker 1:

So yeah, I mean, I learned a lot like I look at my time at Staples and my my manager was good and and there were things about the job that I you know I wouldn't do again, but overall, yeah. I learned a lot. I learned a lot. I think some people came in and they clocked in and out and they got out of there and they missed an opportunity. I learned a lot, that's wild.

Speaker 2:

So you know, knowing your story, the, the internship at Sylvia obviously went well.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, it went well. Yeah, I ended up putting in 10 years there. Wow yeah, awesome so it was.

Speaker 2:

That was great, incredible. Yeah so so yeah, take us, you know, maybe a little bit through that journey and and then, when the entrepreneurial sort of bug, for you to just step out and say I, I love this, I love what I'm doing, but I think there's a way we could serve more people. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1:

No, you nailed it. I mean I got started there as an intern man. I was not a good colleague, I was not a good employee. I, I, yeah, I mean, what makes you say that? Yeah, I just, I, I didn't it's kind of hard to articulate, but I, I was young. I mean I think that's a summary, I was young and inexperienced and you know, we've at one on IT, our organization, we've poured into an internship program Because I want to give people an opportunity, the way I was given an opportunity, a little bit more structure, a little bit more of a Defined program, if you would. But man, without that internship, it's just.

Speaker 1:

You know we talked about how impactful moving overseas was. My internship is probably second to that in terms of career. I'm talking about specifically career impacting things and yeah, I just, I just learned a lot. You know I just started off really rough and green and and learned a lot, learned how to be a better colleague and co-worker, ended up getting a couple promotions.

Speaker 1:

During my time there I went from a help desk technician to help desk manager and I was able to hire three or four employees with me. Then we ran into an interesting situation at at Sylvia's where the external help we were getting in IT there was. There were some problems there and there were just a lot of problems and I ended up being one of probably two or three employees that Ended up parting ways with with that organization and then taking over tons of new responsibilities. So before I knew it, I was in charge of 30 different servers and backups and security and the network and my help desk team and providing, you know, excellent service. We we've rolled out a help desk system and and I just got a chance to almost start from scratch, really.

Speaker 1:

I mean, and that was really impactful.

Speaker 2:

So this is where you had, almost like a third-party Service provider who's inside working with you. That relationship ends, yes, and you all are now reconfiguring the entire and and we're there's.

Speaker 1:

No, we're the end of the line. There's a problem. It's gonna go through an escalation and end up. On my desk, yeah, so you know, I did that for a number of years and I again, I just learned a ton. I mean, you don't have a choice. You either sink or swim in that situation and I, probably subconsciously, but I chose Okay, I'm gonna learn, I'm gonna learn, I'm gonna learn.

Speaker 1:

I don't know a lot about servers, but now I'm in charge, yeah, so I gotta get it figured out and I think what that has Going back to moving overseas. When I moved overseas, I could either Stick to myself Don't go outside, you know just I could go to an American church, an American school, or I could take advantage of the opportunity, and I think that payoff led to some of these other subconscious decisions in my career. Take advantage of the opportunity. What's the worst that could happen? Yes, I mean it. It's worth it.

Speaker 1:

It's scary sometimes, and sometimes you're wrong and sometimes you don't do great work, but you know, I I was always anxious to like speak German to someone Swiss. That's a really good example. When they see you try, they're, they're gonna bend over backwards for you, you know and it's like what's the worst that can happen? I'm gonna mispronounce something. Okay, yeah, it'd be fine, yeah.

Speaker 3:

Well, and you, I feel you learn so much more in those like, yeah, stepping out of, like, absolutely yeah, stepping outside of your comfort zone and just being a little vulnerable, absolutely open to mistakes, and then, yeah, what you learn through that is absolutely amazing.

Speaker 2:

Any any stories or memories from that season where it just felt like the house is on fire? What are we gonna do next?

Speaker 1:

So Sylvia's insurance group. You know they service producers, farmers, okay, and Farming is relatively seasonal. There's a really busy season, I Think. Think of it like this, like if you worked at Cedar Point, you've got a really busy season and then you're in the clear right. It was Sylvia's his busiest season January through March, yeah, and my colleague had just resigned, I think in December and and this is earlier on than some of the things I talked about where I had a team around me, this is this is early on.

Speaker 1:

Colleague had resigned busy season. I was on my own and. I went through that entire busy season supporting, I would say, in the ballpark of 60 employees and probably a hundred agents in that ballpark by Myself. Wow, that was nuts. Yeah, that was nuts. I remember getting to a spot where I would instantly reply to people saying I got your email, like give me a call if it's super urgent. It's gonna be a while. I remember getting to that point.

Speaker 3:

So yeah, because, like Howard, how in that season, like how do you balance like you're on your own? I'm sure you've got help desk stuff coming through, you've got the infrastructure like daily things you gotta be doing is to make sure things are moving smooth and just trying to like manage prioritizing to Keep this thing going yeah.

Speaker 1:

I mean truly, at that moment it was the squeakiest wheels got the oil, for sure. I mean it was, it was Whoever yelled the loudest would get the attention at that time. No, thankfully that was a three-month period and it will cool down. But yeah, as far as balancing, I I really didn't, I just did the best I could, yeah, which I mean Coming through that and coming on the other side of me and like holy cow, we made it through.

Speaker 3:

Like what? What were some of the biggest learnings that you had coming through that season?

Speaker 1:

I just like yeah start to redevelop and find that next person who's coming in knowing what you're looking for and I think I think my, my biggest learning experience during that time is something that we coach a lot on today, which is Look, you're allowed to mess up, you're allowed to struggle, you're allowed to, you know, not feel the greatest or have a lot of stress. What you can do is you can communicate really well. It will buy you a ton of grace with a customer or with your manager. Yeah, you know it's like. In other words, it's okay that you're maybe having a really tough personal situation.

Speaker 1:

We're not gonna judge you or put you down for that at all right what you can do to buy a little bit of grace and Possibly, you know, explain this in a way that we can come alongside you and support you is to say, hey, I, I have a personal situation going on or you know my During that sales season, it was that response to the client to say I got it, I got your ticket, I got your, your request.

Speaker 1:

I hear you Slammed right now Not making excuses just literally your number 70 in queue. So give me a call if this is super urgent. It's just good communication buys you a lot of slack, frankly, I mean. I think that's one of the biggest lessons during that time period. Yeah, it's so good.

Speaker 2:

Awesome, awesome. So you Built a ton of amazing systems. You worked through, built an incredible team. Where does when own it come into the picture? How does that come to be?

Speaker 1:

So, as funny, I actually took an extended vacation and I was gonna work Two weeks remote in Alaska and then take two weeks off. We were gonna do four weeks in Alaska and we we got an email in from a local nonprofit and and they said hey, I know you're an insurance company, but we, we've heard IT is is a strength over there for you guys. We are really struggling with IT. We think we're probably getting ripped off. We're arguing with our IT provider all the time. We feel like we're getting taken advantage of. Can you come in and do an assessment?

Speaker 1:

And At that time, when we received that, believe it or not I was really thinking about I had a really hard time hiring good help as far as a third party. Sure, you know, we had tried maybe three or four. Of course I talked to about ultimately terminating one of them because we just couldn't get on the same page. So I was like, wait a minute, we had that issue, they have that issue. There's got to be a market opportunity for these types of services. You know there has to be, and that that was the spark that got things in motion. I wanted to help that charity really bad, because I knew this situation that they were in, and Without even just just by the email alone.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, my gut told me they weren't getting taken advantage of, they were, and you know, there I knew what.

Speaker 1:

I was gonna uncover because I had gone through those things. Yes, and it's really sad. At the end of the day, the market that I'm in Is is relatively corrupt. It's, it's pretty void of of integrity. I use the analogy a lot. I think there's there's some amazing mechanics out there. This is not meant to be an insult. Sure, there's some bad mechanics out there, yep, and they, you know, if a mechanic rips you off, you're, you're, none the way. I mean, you don't know.

Speaker 3:

You're not gonna get it right yeah.

Speaker 1:

Man the IT world is Is, it's corrupt and there's a lot of problems with it, and I thought Maybe I could start something that could work to, to redeeming this, this industry, in a way. So I'm condensing a lot of sure stuff, yeah, but you know that's, that's kind of. What really got the ball rolling. So you went to Sylvia's leadership, yeah.

Speaker 2:

and basically said, hey, I've got this idea, this concept. I think there's other people out here they could use the services we are providing for for Sylvia's right.

Speaker 1:

and then you launched from there that that's exactly right. I mean, and I remember having to sit down Thinking to myself man, what are the chances they say yes? Chances seem. I'll say 51%. What are the chances that they say yes and Let me take a couple of my key people with me? Okay, yeah, 25%. What are the chances they say yes, let me take a handful of people with me and say they want to be client number one. All right, let's let's. What's it gonna hurt? Let's sit down, have the conversation and much to my surprise honestly, I was surprised because there's a lot of ways it could fail. Yeah, they could become, you know, a lot less focus on them.

Speaker 1:

They could become an afterthought you know, their service level could, could, drop. There's there's a lot of reasons why an organization wouldn't want to do that. Sure and I. It's not personal. Yeah, it's not personal. It's the service that they have. Yeah, it happens, it's not personal, it's not personal.

Speaker 2:

It's not personal, it's not personal, the service that they have absolutely, it's just.

Speaker 1:

I'm just speaking factually.

Speaker 2:

Yeah.

Speaker 1:

Sit down, have the conversation. There was an enthusiastic yes and take. Take your key people. Wow and we would love for you to service us. Wow, yeah, and I mean, there's no secret that jumpstart is a critical piece of our success. Sure I didn't worry about feeding my family day one.

Speaker 2:

Yeah.

Speaker 1:

You know a lot of entrepreneurs. Yeah, they have nowhere near the jumpstart and I had a really good jumpstart. Still needed to figure out how to run an IT business, right. Yeah, Still need to figure out how to sell, how to do tons of things that I had zero experience with. But I had a client day one and I had a handful. I believe I took three people over. I was trying to remember is it three? I think I took three people over with me and got started in 2019. So, that was our start.

Speaker 2:

Wow, yeah, amazing.

Speaker 3:

So and again it's like that pattern of seeing an opportunity and being willing to step into that uncomfortable take a risk.

Speaker 1:

Absolutely.

Speaker 3:

That's the worst that could happen.

Speaker 1:

Right.

Speaker 3:

And then seeing just like the dividends pay off.

Speaker 2:

Yeah.

Speaker 3:

Tenfold through that Yep, not saying it's easy. It's not like it's, but willing to like, hey, we're gonna go through the struggle. We're gonna go through these challenges. We're gonna figure it out.

Speaker 3:

I'm gonna step in and know I'm gonna be over my head. There's things that I don't know yet, yep, but yeah, again it's like being vulnerable and knowing there's gonna be people who are gonna surround you and that and help you. So with that, yeah, I mean who were some of that? Again you're stepping into being that like hands-on figuring out. Now you're leading an organization who is kind of helping mentor you through that. Who are some of those key people in your life during that time.

Speaker 1:

Well, my wife was a big one, you know. Tons of support Really made things possible that otherwise would have been super tough, and I think my parents as well. So my dad was an executive at a big multinational company. So you know it's different. We're not publicly traded and you know his number one goal ultimately, at the end of the day, was value to the shareholders. We're privately held. We have some other values, but the business acumen and guidance Actually I'll tell you a quick story, some of my dad's guidance, one of my first major proposals. I gave him a call like an hour before and I said dad, I just I'm so nervous, this is the biggest. At the time it was huge. Okay, today it would be okay or nice, but it was huge then. I honestly at that moment thought this is gonna make or break me even, let alone the company, and I said here's what I'm thinking about doing. I'm thinking about charging you know, I'm just gonna make up.

Speaker 1:

I don't remember the numbers, I'm gonna make them up. You know, $2,500 a month for this service and $2,000 to get started, and he goes. If it were me, I would think that's a pretty poor service that you're offering. I was like dad, what are you talking about? It's a ton of money. He goes. I would think that's bottom of the barrel. I probably wouldn't say no, I was like well, what are you talking?

Speaker 3:

about.

Speaker 1:

And he goes. Man, you need to be $8,000 a month, $25,000, to get started.

Speaker 3:

Again. I just made up numbers, Just to give you a night.

Speaker 1:

And I was like dad, they're gonna laugh me out of the room. And he goes no, no, listen, I'm telling you, if you undersell yourself now, you'll never get corrected number one and number two they're gonna think you're, you know Walmart brand, whatever.

Speaker 1:

So okay, walk in that office, give the presentation. They cut the presentation short and say we're all in, let's see the slide. Let's see the price. I had a price slide. I pulled it up there and it's $25,000 and it's like $8,000 or $9,000 per month. They don't hesitate for a millisecond and they say we're in, we're all in, let's get it signed.

Speaker 3:

I would have undersold us so short.

Speaker 1:

And, by the way, with that client, who's still a client today, I have zero questions about ROI on that contract zero yeah. I would have undersold us tremendously. I mean, and these are things that you just learned along the way- Sure. But the question to loop back to the question, who's been supportive? My wife, my dad, my mom very, very, very supportive and a lot of good guidance. I've got really good customers, really good business partners. You know there's great employees that I have on staff that Scott and Avine, who you guys?

Speaker 2:

know really well.

Speaker 1:

Brad Gutwein. You guys know really well I mean, I could go on for a long time Really good people around me, really good mentors. The list would be a couple months long. But but that's part of learning to you strong yourself with people that can give you good guidance. It's awesome.

Speaker 2:

That's awesome. So talk a little bit about the. I don't know how you, when you launched Winona IT, you set out to be different. Yeah absolutely. And you talked about IT industry being corrupt and people being taken advantage of. So I think you've alluded to it a little bit, but what were some of those pieces that when you said, hey, when we do this, this is our, this is our mode of operation, these are our values. These are some of the things we're gonna just put out into the space?

Speaker 1:

Yeah, one of the things I did really early on was I hired an executive coach who asked that exact question early on and got me really thinking about that exact question and I, I, I read an article he gave me. I'm gonna give you a long answer here Sure yeah.

Speaker 1:

Cause it's. It's important. I read an article he gave me about Sony and I want to say it was in the seventies. Sony came out and said we are gonna be the brand that changes the global perception of what it means to be made in Japan. I read that and I thought, well, what the heck does that mean? Made in Japan means awesome stuff, Right, yeah, I mean. Toyota is arguably, arguably, the best run organization in the world.

Speaker 3:

Manufacturing certainly Right right.

Speaker 1:

Sony is an excellent brand Panasonic.

Speaker 2:

Yeah.

Speaker 1:

I mean I don't know what you guys run. As far as rechargeables, I've gone through every brand of rechargeable batteries. I can think of Panasonic's the best. I did some research and it wasn't that long ago. I want to say it was in the seventies. You might have to fact check me on this, but Japanese and Chinese made goods were considered on par with each other.

Speaker 1:

I mean like bottom of the barrel, Just terrible yeah yeah, sony, panasonic, a handful of companies lifted them out of that into this category of just made with excellence and that reading about that was so impactful to me I thought maybe Winona IT can be a brand, at least in Northern Indiana, that lifts the entire IT support software development, cybersecurity, you know lifts that up into the excellent category. Cause my opinion, and I think the general opinion, is IT supports terrible. You know, certainly my experience that non-profits experience by the way they were taken advantage of when we dug in, yeah right.

Speaker 1:

I just I feel like it's enriching and it's just a really positive thing to work really hard at changing people's perception of what it means to do business with an IT consulting firm, and we really work hard to do that in everything we do.

Speaker 2:

I love that. Yeah, I love that. So what are some of the cultural pieces internally for you guys that just help to fuel that and push that forward?

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I mean, you know we've developed core values over the years and I think it's really important. Your core values shouldn't be things that you aspire to. They should be who you are, and we've developed core values that I think really differentiate us. One of them is build meaningful relationships. We have really good relationships with our customers, really good relationships with our employees and with vendors. I've had vendors you know reach out and say I've got 150 IT companies like you that I do business with and you guys are the best. Wow, you guys never insult me, never tried to undercut. You know what I mean. We just try to do business in a way that is different, and focusing on relationships is one of those really key ways. It's super important. That's awesome. We've showed up at, you know, funerals. We've shown up at. We do a thing at Grace Village where we buy an ice cream cart, we take it over there and we give out ice cream to the residents and nurses at Grace Village, because you know it's important.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, so it's one thing to say relationships are important, but we try to live it out. And we try to live it out not just with clients, it's employees and vendors as well. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2:

No, I mean I can say that from example. You mentioned Scott earlier. Scott showed up here one day, sat down with Mike and I and I kind of had in the back of my mind, like what's this meeting about? Yeah, Like literally him just checking in on us? Yeah, absolutely.

Speaker 3:

Just checking in. Yeah, like what else? What else? Yeah, like waiting for him to sell me something. No, I'm not here. Yeah, what's the upsell?

Speaker 2:

Nothing and it literally was just a half hour to sit down and just check on us and that was awesome.

Speaker 1:

I mean just totally unique so.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, we call that a goodwill visit and it's the whole purpose is just how are you guys doing? How are you feeling about your services? What do we need to take a look at Continuous improvement. You know another core value of ours is always learn, improve and be curious. Well, you know how are you going to do that with 150 clients. You got to meet with them, you got to have those conversations regularly. Take your no, that Goodwill visit you might not have unloaded on them. Maybe another client does, but the point is you come back, you have some intel, you get better and it's just like it's in our DNA Love it love it.

Speaker 2:

So, with learning and being curious, I would imagine we have some similarities in our businesses. In this Absolutely, technology is evolving constantly.

Speaker 3:

Things are changing.

Speaker 2:

Constantly Yep. First, how are you staying on top of it? What are you doing with your team in that? And then, yeah, what are some of the big things you're seeing right now in terms of trends? Oh, really good question.

Speaker 1:

You know I get that question a lot.

Speaker 2:

Sure.

Speaker 1:

And it's a really excellent question. I think my answer might disappoint some people out there, but one of the ways that we've decided to do business is we have a really strong partnership with Microsoft and we're basically outsourcing R&D to them. We're basically we're on their bandwagon, if you would.

Speaker 3:

Sure.

Speaker 1:

Now I think of organizations to partner with. It's a pretty good one especially when your focus is enterprise IT.

Speaker 1:

And look, we're not fanboys like the whole Google versus Microsoft. We try to actually stay out of that, but we're tied to them. Therefore, we really rely on them to be cutting edge and we absorb what we can and implement what makes sense, and that's been one of our strategies. One of our strategies has been to ride their coattails, if you would. Again, some downside to that, but there's a handful of companies in the world you could probably do that too, and they're probably number one. Yeah, in some of the other areas that are relatively more limited or not limited, but just more specific we do spend a lot of time doing our own R&D, experimenting sandboxes. Cybersecurity is a good example. We've got dedicated professionals who are in that space and they're going through education constantly, and that's another way to do it.

Speaker 1:

As far as what we're seeing right now I mean, ai is obviously all the rage for everything I think what we'll see there is we will see a lot of day-to-day implementation of a chat GPT-like thing. I know Microsoft is calling it co-pilot. We saw a demo recently where you open up Outlook and you type into this little box. You say like hey, generate a job description for a video editor and in Outlook it'll create that job description and then the person wrote at the top hey, matt, review this JD and let me know and hit send. And it took 10 seconds instead of two hours or whatever. We're gonna see a lot of that integrated into the day-to-day and, whether it's Word or Outlook or what have you, we're gonna see AI-enabled shortcuts, if you would. That, I think, are gonna speed things up for people. Awesome, awesome.

Speaker 2:

So we've had the privilege of working with you to produce your podcast.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, with an IT's Wired for Growth, wired for Growth.

Speaker 2:

Make sure to check it out, definitely check that out, like and subscribe, and you guys have an episode devoted to IT. So great conversation. I would encourage people to go check that out, but for our listeners, are the robots gonna take over?

Speaker 1:

Yeah.

Speaker 2:

What should we be fearing in that regard? Okay, I love this question.

Speaker 1:

I love this question and people don't anticipate this answer. I think we spend time thinking about that today, and what we really need to be thinking about instead is how is the world gonna change and how do we adapt and who's gonna get displaced and who's gonna be hurt by this. And so I love the question, but my real answer is all the apocalypse type talk is truly a distraction to what's right in front of us, and I'll give you a good example. There's a huge market out there for virtual assistance, and I know awesome virtual assistants personally that do phenomenal work. The reality is, I think a large portion of what they do is gonna be automated here in no time at all. Okay, so what do you do with that? What do you do with those jobs? Is it 10 million people? I don't know, five million, I don't know Right, but Matt and you and I have talked about this, and we talked about it with Dr Hoffer as well. Are we prepping our children to participate in this revolution?

Speaker 1:

or to be again displaced by it. It takes skills in math and I mean we've gone over this before, but it takes expertise to contribute to this and AI is gonna generate an unbelievable amount of wealth for people that are able to take advantage of this, and those are the things I think we need to be focused on and working towards and the probability of that is 100%, in my opinion.

Speaker 1:

And this apocalypse type talk, right now I would say it's just not there, it just doesn't exist. We'll see. I'm not saying never think about those things, sure, but today the topics I brought up are getting zero attention, zero attention.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, I mean again, it's that opportunity mindset of yeah they're like it's happening. Yeah, the world is changing. It's the next like revolution for us of like, how are we moving things forward? Yeah and yeah, who are gonna be the ones who jump on? Are the early adopters and who are the ones who want to fight it? And then they get caught playing catch-up. It's like how are we, you know, preparing?

Speaker 1:

Yeah.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, I know we're. I'm a huge. I spend more time on chat GPT. I think that anything, yeah, yeah, it's like such a as a creative, to like have something in your head and be like, hey, I need to get this like out, I just need to get that. That again. That first step forward, yeah, and it is that it'll get you 10 steps down the road. Do that now I can, yeah, start refining and get it to where? Yeah, the efficiency, I just yeah, I love it.

Speaker 2:

Well, I mean it's, it's like this to have a brainstorm partner? Yes, right and I heard somebody say call it one time of treat like it's an intern. Oh yeah, like you're not trusting it to run the company right, but somebody that you can have a brainstorm conversation with and just help get the thoughts out of your head onto paper, because I know in our industry it's it's, it's hard and it's controversial just the whole idea of the copywriting side of things. That'll be sorted out.

Speaker 1:

I feel like that's that's in the bucket right now of immediate problems that need attention. Yeah, we were talking earlier just a minute ago. That will get sorted out. I feel confident that that was. The copywriting issues that came up were just a totally unforeseen consequence of this thing getting launched relatively quickly and made available to the public and one broad sweeping, you know brush. But I think that issue is being taken really seriously. We're getting information from Microsoft that there's already a Lot of progress being made in that regard awesome, awesome.

Speaker 2:

So room for regulation? Yeah, definitely for some guardrails.

Speaker 1:

Absolutely. I mean, I think the brightest minds in the world right now are screaming for some regulation and and you know, not a total lockdown.

Speaker 3:

We need to know some like yeah, this is the lane, here's some. You know, here's the sandbox that we can play a little bit with it. Yeah and evade inside of that. Yes, I feel like it is growing so fast. I just like the new, like announcement with, like you know, chat GBT for the new evolution of that and it's and I mean I was on it the other day it's like how fast it is now.

Speaker 3:

Like it's insane and you know it's like plug in a website, pull all the content from it to To give you like it's yeah, it's, it's nuts.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, it's nuts.

Speaker 1:

That's awesome. That's awesome.

Speaker 2:

So, so with that, we'll dovetail that into you. Know you look at the future, technology, all these things. What are you excited about for for you, for when own it, your team, as you're leaning into the future?

Speaker 1:

one of the biggest things and it's related to this is a Lot of customers of ours have a lot of data, I mean Just a just a ton of data, and it's like man, how do we use this? How do we what? What do we do with this and what? What's the optimal way to read this, interpret this, analyze this? There's a lot of really powerful tools out there that have gotten us to a certain point, but I want to give you an example of something that I saw in real life that was unbelievable.

Speaker 1:

It was a I think it was a hotel. Hotel had had just Unbelievable amount of data over the last 10 years. They dumped it into a chat, gpt like Service and they said give me the number one trend amongst repeat customers. And it was like three, four, five seconds later it said your visitors that actually buy a day pass to your spa are like three times more likely to come back at some point in the near in the future. And it was like that. That data, frankly, was oh, it always existed, but it was never accessible. Yeah, it would have taken.

Speaker 1:

It truly is impossible to extract that otherwise, and it was like 10 seconds and it and it spit that information out. Now You're, you own these, let's say, hundred hotels and you know someone visits your spa or buys a spa day pass. Think about what you can do with that. Think you know how many of your hotels don't have a spa. I bet they're getting one here pretty soon. You know that that type of useful information leads to Efficiencies and optimizations that I think create again. They create more opportunities, more wealth. They Frankly, they benefit everybody. Yeah, so that's that's really what I'm looking for, and I feel like that's right around the corner.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, yeah, and that because it is. It's so true, like the company's, like we have all this data, like everyone's collecting, it's like you know that we need it. Yeah but then it's like who's actually taking the time to go back? Like who's on your team? That's like I mean, that's their full-time job.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, organizations like hey, we're going back, we're looking through all these things to try to forecast what's coming, yeah, and now it's like, hey, we can like, yeah, yeah, process it instantaneously to know. Hey, here, here some of the trends and how do we forecast out better for those? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1:

What it took prior. You know, I think people that are in executive positions that have really really good intuition tend to separate from the pack one way or another. Well, that that's not everybody has, that you know. And so I think you know whether an analyst or an executive had this intuition that the spa was, was that important, or had some sort of indicators. I think in the future, that information is just gonna be crystal clear and that's that's so important. Yeah, awesome.

Speaker 2:

All right. So I was gonna ask you about just wild client story and you can certainly share what you want, but you referenced something at the beginning of the episode.

Speaker 1:

You and.

Speaker 3:

I is an intentional road trip across the country so.

Speaker 2:

I'm not sure it gets much more crazy than that.

Speaker 1:

No, that's one of the craze. So yeah, the very short version of that Matt and I, a client invited us to to go up to Devil's thumb Resort, right yeah?

Speaker 2:

that's in Colorado. That's in Colorado.

Speaker 3:

Yeah.

Speaker 1:

What's the town that's in? It's not Denver, is it Boulder? Boulder maybe. Yeah, we flew into Denver, yeah.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, and, and Matt and I, so it was a leadership retreat for their company. That's right, we were coming in as supportive. You know, you from the IT side, us as the storytelling capturing side.

Speaker 1:

So so, yeah, fly into Denver and I never feel great when I fly. I mean, I don't know if you guys ever experienced that, but you're you just, you're just. It's never great. Yeah, and I remember landing I was a little bit tired and I just didn't feel that great when I turned my phone off. Airplane mode. I got like literally 10 text messages from different people. I have COVID, I have COVID. You know my wife saying I have COVID.

Speaker 3:

I'm like what do I do?

Speaker 1:

and Matt, I can't even tell you how terrible I felt. Like you, I knew you were going down with me one way or another well, because we had, we had first, we, we got up.

Speaker 2:

You know, in Warsaw you got in your truck and we drove to the Detroit air. That's right, we drove so we've been in a car together for three hours that's right and then we've sat next to each other on a plane.

Speaker 1:

That's right, an additional three hours. Did I give you my headphones? Yes, yeah, you, let me borrow some headphones, but no here's what I remember yeah.

Speaker 2:

I remember this so well because we fly out of the Detroit Airport a fair amount and and there's you and I sat down for lunch Before our flight, okay, and I remember us sitting down At this little Italian kind of bistro place and you looking across and you're like Do I look okay? And I was like you asked me and I'm like, yeah, You're like huh, I don't know. I don't know if I feel too good. And so there was even just a little bit of like Premonition of like something's going down.

Speaker 1:

Okay so anyway, back to you. It's funny, I don't know. Not an airplane mode. Yeah, we get off the plane and I had to make a quick decision. Do I, do I go up to this resort and Risk it? And what sorry was this 2021?

Speaker 2:

Let's see 2020 this was fall of 2020, september, september 2020.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, that was a different time in the world.

Speaker 2:

It was, and then, today.

Speaker 3:

It was a reminder.

Speaker 1:

Yes, yes, so I get, I get out of the plane and I make the decision. I'll go get tested and so there was testing in the airport was there was a testing in the airport. I go, get tested and she comes back in the room like 20 minutes later and she goes. No, you're positive, absolutely.

Speaker 2:

Which means both Michael and I are now instantly on a no-fly list.

Speaker 1:

We're on the no-fly list. Well, I certainly was.

Speaker 2:

I don't know if you were well, because I think what we'd processed through was that I Wouldn't get tested in that moment. Okay, until we figured out how we're gonna get home because at this point.

Speaker 3:

I'm not positive, you're your contact trace.

Speaker 2:

I'm contact-traced, but like I'm also our only hope to get us home yeah so she said you've got two options.

Speaker 1:

There's a COVID reserved hotel for you downtown, which sounded just terrible.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, what a fun time.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, you gotta stay in your room for seven days.

Speaker 1:

What are you gonna do in our hotel? Room for seven days. Yeah, or you can rent a car and you can drive home. Was it 24 hour? Drive 21 hour 24 for Denver. And I remember, I remember asking you and you're like we're headed over to Enterprise. Man, we're a vis, we're gonna.

Speaker 2:

Because again your wife is home.

Speaker 1:

Yes, that's super pregnant, nine months pregnant or eight months pregnant.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, so it was very, very clear to me of, like Michael, we are not hanging out in Denver for seven days in a hotel.

Speaker 1:

We got to get home now, this is kind of a sad Part of the story, but my wife was super sick. Yeah, she ended up being hospitalized. Yeah, she was Really not doing well eight months pregnant. That that was scary. I mean, she was in the hospital at Seven days maybe.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, yeah she got down to like a hundred and ten pounds, eight months pregnant. It was horrible, I mean, but the long, here's this overlining right, here's the optimist. Yes, matt and I had many great conversations. Yes, I felt terrible, both, both mentally and physically terrible, and we made it back. We made it back two days.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, no, I mean we, yeah, we pretty much drove until we couldn't drive anymore, stopped and got a couple hotel rooms and then just got right back up and kept driving. But what I remember is when we went down to you know enterprise, it was because we had a rental car to take us to the resort and it was like, hey, we need to change our reservation. We need to go to Detroit where our cars parked and we also need the largest car that you have again 2020.

Speaker 3:

We don't know what's going on.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, so they gave us this Ford expedition. Yeah we set you up in the back seat. Yep, I'm in the front seat. We both got in 95 masks. Yeah, all the windows open so literally there were times we're we're blown down the interstate, you know, 80 miles an hour, with the windows open and 95 masks on, just like. I think this is the best we can do to stay safe.

Speaker 1:

We didn't have a clue. We ended up not getting sick. I didn't get sick, yeah, so it's absolutely crazy that yeah.

Speaker 2:

Out of all that, I was fine.

Speaker 1:

That was nuts. That was nuts. But you know silver lining was a lot of good conversations from that. Absolutely. Yeah, sorry you missed the resort man. Hey, it looks like a black hey it's all.

Speaker 2:

it's all good, it's all good. I feel like we made some some lifetime members there. All right, so real quickly, as we're wrapping up here, we've got some rapid-fire questions. Okay just gonna throw some things at you and just go with with top your head. So recommend one book that has significantly influenced your approach in business.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, okay, so one of my favorite books out there is a book called integrity, and the author is dr Henry cloud. When I started to read this book well, actually, I'm gonna put you guys on the spot. I'll start with you, mason. What does integrity mean?

Speaker 3:

Oh, integrity to me is following through on what you say.

Speaker 2:

Okay, all right. I mean, he honestly took the words out of my mouth of just yeah, you're a man of your word.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, okay. So yeah, when I went into this book, my definition was exactly what you said, mason. It was You're gonna do what you say you're gonna do. You know, some people even have the definition integrity is telling the truth. Well, that that's an aspect. But what this book really taught me? It uses the analogy of a boat moving over the water and there's a wake on Both sides of the boat, and that's your career, that's your. The boat going through the water is you going through your career, or or life, rather, and on one side of the wake is relationships, and on other side of the wake are results. And you need in work, you need results, but you need relationships and you need to maintain relationships. And he talks about how integrity is really making something whole. I you know a lot of the root of the word integrity, or the history behind it, is to make that situation or make that thing whole, which certainly if you say you're going to do it, then doing it, you've made it whole.

Speaker 1:

But maybe it's that apology that you skipped over five years ago. We'll go back and make it whole and you know these things are related. But going through your career, going through my career as an entrepreneur, I want to foster great relationships and I want to have good results and you can do both. You don't have to pick one or the other, and operating with integrity is choosing to do both. So very good book Love that. If I was supposed to give you like a one word answer.

Speaker 3:

No, no, no, it's perfect. Yeah, I actually feel like a lot of these. I want you kind of like to, yeah.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, feel free to expand, Okay, great.

Speaker 3:

Because, like the next one, it's like where are you drawing inspiration from? And like, how do you feel yourself for the day?

Speaker 1:

Yeah, Well, you know, admittedly and maybe this is me personally but it comes and goes and it's in waves. I recently heard an interview by the founder of Nvidia. You know, nvidia is it's like a trillion dollar company. Now it's one of the top three or four companies in the world.

Speaker 1:

They started off making video cards, but now they're in the AI chip business and they asked him. They said would you do this all over again? He goes. Well, I know the answer you're looking for is absolutely yes, he goes. But if I go back in time and I looked at all the shame, embarrassment, sacrifice, stress, the personal relationships I've, I've really damaged. I think his answer what I'm going to screw the punchline up I think his answer was essentially I don't think I would. Well, I don't know.

Speaker 3:

Did you share this on LinkedIn? I feel like I saw this video. Okay, someone shared this interview. I did it. It is so good yeah.

Speaker 1:

And so where do I draw inspiration from? I draw first. I wanted to. I just wanted to say that you know, it is tough and sometimes the inspiration's there and other times it's tough, and maybe I think a lot of entrepreneurs are not really honest with other people, which actually probably helps entrepreneurs to a degree, because if they think it's easy, then we got more entrepreneurs.

Speaker 3:

But you know.

Speaker 1:

I really draw inspiration from what we're able to do with our customers, enriching their lives, what we're able to do with our employees. You know we have. We have an amazing retention rate and people have advanced and and done really well in our organization. So I think the impact we have on people that's where I draw inspiration from Excellent.

Speaker 2:

Excellent, all right. So in a world of technology, what's one gadget, tool or app that you just cannot imagine life without this?

Speaker 1:

is tough. I'm a big fan of my home theater.

Speaker 3:

Okay, I love sports. Yeah, I love movies.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I was in one of those 4K blue rays last night. It's like you see every single detail. Yeah, so I love, I love my home theater. Yeah, I, I. I wish I had a more passionate answer, but I think technology, I love it and I also like to escape it at the same time. So, yeah, it's kind of where I'm at, it's good yeah.

Speaker 3:

So with that, if you unplug, check out going anywhere in the world right now. Where are you going?

Speaker 1:

I have been wanting to do a survival camp for a long time.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, have you watched alone. Oh yeah, oh yeah I love alone.

Speaker 2:

We're watching it right now.

Speaker 3:

Okay.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, what season? Latest one, the latest one on Netflix.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, good season yeah.

Speaker 1:

I want to go somewhere for a week or so and just just rough it. Yeah, and it's been on my mind for a long time to do that. Second to that, I've got some family in Alaska and and really love to spend summers up there and just have an absolute blast up there. So cool.

Speaker 2:

Cool Hidden talent or skill People don't know about.

Speaker 1:

Oh, hidden talent or skill Ping pong, I'm pretty good at table tennis. I'm kind of a novice electrician so I've built like off grid solar systems before with batteries. I can build my own lithium batteries, so I've I like to do that.

Speaker 2:

You pause like I don't have any of those, and now you're breaking out your lithium batteries my personality is when something's really interesting to me, I deep dive on it.

Speaker 1:

Yeah. I deep dive. I love to cook, yeah, I love barbecue. I love to do briskets and all kinds of stuff like that. But I deep dive in this stuff and then I move on to the next thing.

Speaker 3:

So, yeah, awesome it's amazing Whenever you hit those moments of I'm not necessarily like the term burnout, but just like whatever, like the way, like, and you need to disconnect. What's that go to like stress relief activity for you? I'm just going to recharge.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I mean, you know I'm an avid outdoorsman, so when I can get out in the woods during hunting season it's really good recharge for me, and I generally take some time off in November to do that. You know that time in Alaska every summer is a really good recharge for me. Yeah, I think it's funny like the recharge is a polar opposite of my day to day. It's time where I'm fishing on Lake Michigan or I'm on the Keeneye River catching sockeye salmon. It's always the exact opposite. It's been that way since I can remember. But I really enjoy camping as well and just, yeah, just getting out there and just getting away.

Speaker 2:

It's big for me, awesome, awesome, all right. Last question when the Atlanta?

Speaker 3:

Falcons beat the.

Speaker 2:

Philadelphia Eagles and the NFC championship. Will we still be friends?

Speaker 1:

Of course, okay, cool.

Speaker 2:

Totally fictional thing that's not going to happen.

Speaker 1:

Super fictional, yeah, I mean props are coming up with that. That took a lot of creativity. They dream that one up. Chat GPT helped me, okay yeah.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I've got a whole model for it, yeah.

Speaker 3:

Look at the historical data Exactly.

Speaker 2:

Well, Michael, thank you so much. We really, really appreciate you. We appreciate your partnership and our business, our friendship. Thank you for spending time with us. For people that want to connect with you, connect with Winona IT how should they find you?

Speaker 1:

Yeah, check us out, winonaitcom. We're on LinkedIn, facebook. Shoot me an email as well. Michael at WinonaITcom Love to see how we can help and look forward to meeting new people all the time.

Speaker 2:

Awesome and, like we said before, don't miss out on Michael's podcast Wired for Growth. It is a good one.

Speaker 3:

Yes, great, great leadership content in there. Yeah, and that is what's awesome about it?

Speaker 2:

It's not just IT. You're diving into leadership and some of the amazing things we've been talking about here today. That's one thing too.

Speaker 3:

My guys want to say thank you to you for as we started this. I mean, we were in a very similar boat and you coming alongside of us and just pouring into us, giving us those insights and learnings that you had in your transition and building WinonaIT and showing out. So just appreciate your openness and willingness to help other entrepreneurs in this journey.

Speaker 3:

Which, yeah, I guess one final leave our listeners like what is that encouragement, like inspiration to them, If they're in that like, yeah, the uneasy, or knowing there's something that they want to be doing but not really willing to take that risk yet, of that challenge of like hey, see the opportunity and go seize it.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, you know, really, really good question. I think the ultimate guidance that I would give is you can overcome a lot of adversity and you can defy the odds. You can be successful. You can take a step out and do a really good job. You can start a business. You can do a whole lot of things in life. You gotta be coachable. You gotta be coachable. You don't know what you don't know. Not only do you not know what you don't know, you think you know some things that are absolutely wrong.

Speaker 1:

I mean, there's no substitute for what you guys have gone through in the last two years two and a half years. There's no substitute for what I've gone through in the last five years. There's no education can help and I'm not playing that down, but there's. You gotta be coachable because you gotta learn every day.

Speaker 1:

And I think the people that I see that are not coachable and they're not willing to learn are the quickest to give up. They're the quickest to. You know, if I use that example of moving overseas, they were the ones that stayed at home. They were the ones that went to the. You know, they left to go to the American church and then they come back and they were just little America overseas.

Speaker 1:

You gotta be coachable, and to be coachable you have to let your ego down a little bit and you gotta say, hey, I don't know everything and I'm going to absorb as much as I can. I mean, that's, it's just so critical. And yeah, you also have to be confident too. I mean there's balance. You gotta be confident, but you gotta be willing to listen and learn and be coached. And if you have a good coach that can can speak the truth to you in a in a way that it's not set out to hurt you but really kind of let you know where you're at, where reality is, if you would, it'll go a long way. I had that in my career and really, really helpful, so good yeah.

Speaker 3:

And that makes me think of it as a quote that's really stuck with me this past year of it's been kind of my like little mantra of like I'm brilliant because I know I'm not a steal from those who are sure.

Speaker 3:

And it's not like just constantly looking for those who, further down the road from you or you know, been through some of those life experiences and being able to draw from those and yeah know that even the things that you think that you know, there's different perspectives and being able to constantly learn and pivot and yeah, let's continue growing.

Speaker 1:

Amazing, amazing. You gotta be, you gotta be agile, you gotta be willing to, to make adjustments and get feedback. Take the feedback seriously, make adjustments. That, that loop is how you can be successful.

Speaker 2:

So yeah, Amazing Great stuff yeah.

Speaker 3:

I could talk to you all day, Really really appreciate this.

Speaker 2:

Thank you for your time.

Speaker 1:

Yeah.

Speaker 2:

Thanks everybody for listening in joining us for Stories that Move. We will see you next time. Thank you for joining us for this episode of Stories that Move brought to you by Dream on Studios.

Speaker 3:

Make sure to subscribe so that you don't miss the next episode and remember if you or your organization have a story you're eager to share with the world, dream on Studios is here to bring that story to life.

Speaker 2:

Don't hesitate to reach out. You can find us on LinkedIn, Instagram, Facebook or visit our website at dreamonstudiosio. We understand how overwhelming it can be trying to bring your vision and story to life, but that's why we exist, and we've walked alongside hundreds of clients doing that very thing.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, we believe every story has the potential to inspire, to move and to make a difference. Let's make yours heard.

Speaker 2:

Until next time, keep moving forward and keep telling those stories that matter.

Speaker 3:

Take care, everyone. We'll see you next time on Stories that Move.